Opinions for heating shop

Hi all.

Well, froze me socks of yesterday, so its time to look into heating for my shop.

Details:

- Outdoor, above ground shop, ~75' from my house (read closest NG supply).

- ~16x18 feet. 8 foot ceilings *except* the center portion (lets say about 16x6 feet thats open straight up (for a skylight).

- All walls are insulated with R12 pink.

- Portions of the ceiling are R20 where i could, other is R12

- Floor is _not_ insulated (ill do this next year if i need to), wont be easy since drywall sits on top of plywood floor, and i cant get underneath from outside.

My dilema:

I only have 40amps out here. God knows im kicking myself for cheaping out on wire when i buried it, but thats all ive got. So any serious electric heat means the strongest power tool i can use is a hand saw.

What i've got right now:

An "industrial" electirc fan heater. It draws 20 amps at 220v iirc. It outputs ~16,000 BTU's. Hooked it up yesterday, I cant see it providing enough heat. Plus it eats up a good chunk of power.

What Im considering:

- One of those free standing radiant propane heaters - ie "

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" - which is rated at 8-42k btu. Question: Any comments?

- A forced air propane heater - ie

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Comments? AND I worried about risk of explosion since it would be pulling in duty shop air. Valid?

OR do you have any other comments or suggestions on what avenue I might go for heating?

One approach I considered was wall a hung radiant propane heater for ~1000.00 with plenty of heat (like 70k btu) - however this bad boy required a dedicated propane tank installed outside beside my shop. Since my shop is in my backyard, surrouned by hedges and nowhere close to the driveway for refilling the tank, this isnt really an option (nor is getting getting it past my wife, she would consider that an "eyesore"). Plus im not really up on spending 1000 bucks on a heating system Running NG from the house is another possibily, but my guess is the cost of that would be up there given the need for professionals to do some of the instal, etc etc.

Much thanks for your comments!

Reply to
canadian_woodworker
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Regarding one of the radiant heaters...correct me if I'm wrong (as if that doesn't happen *automatically* on this newsgroup...), but I think one of the byproducts of the radiant propane heaters is water vapor.

It's one of the reasons campers won't use them in small tents because they cause condensation to form and everything gets wet.

Now, given your shop air is not currently being "treated," this is probably no big deal.

But could this possibly aggravate a rust problem on tool steel?

Reply to
wood_newbie

this quarters issue of fine woodworking magazine has an article on this very subject. gives the pro's and cons of the different types of heating systems.go though your local bookstore and read it.

Len

Reply to
leonard

Wood burning stove. If you're like most woodworkers, your scraps will keep you warm and keep the shop clean.

Reply to
Duke of Burl

Insurance costs might be higher though.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Friesen

re water byproduct. Good point - Ive heard this as well, and ive also heard that rust on tools is an issue.

re Woodworking magazine having article - will do, thanks, though im hesitant.

re Wood burning stove. Id be all over this. But honestly - an open fire in a workshop with plenty of dust flying around scares me (unless I go airtight, what I have in the house). And that aside, i just can't see my insurance company going for this, but who knows, I will look into it.

Thanks all, keep those responses coming!

Reply to
canadian_woodworker

IMHO, I would not use an unvented heater anywhere. In addition to producing water as a byproduct of combustion, they also pump carbon dioxide into your workspace. For a shop, a good choice is a vented, ceiling-mounted tube heater. Some (but not the only) sites for info):

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Reply to
KENDALL SEYBERT

Reply to
Thomas Kendrick

| OR do you have any other comments or suggestions on what avenue I | might go for heating?

Solar heating panels on your shop's southern wall might provide much, if not all, of the heat you want.

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

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Reply to
Morris Dovey

Unless you want to run another gas line, or upgrade the electric, you need "portable" fuel. This could be wood, kero or propane. I'd suggest checking on prices to see what is most affordable and the heater to go with it. I currently heat with kero and a fireplace I salvaged from a job (which is nice....especially when it's real cold and snowy, the shop is "cozy") The torpedo kero heater gets the shop warm quickly and the fire maintains it. My plans are to replace the fireplace (they are nice, but inefficient) with a wood burner and add a propane heater (our tank is 12' from the shop) to keep things warm. In your case, kero or wood is probably the way to go. A torpedo will warm it up quickly, but they are noisy. A radiant heater, although quiet, will take longer. Keep in mind that any unvented heater will add water vapor to the air in your shop, whether it be kero or propane or natural gas etc.. Personally, my biggest problem with water vapor causing rust is in springtime when the heaters are not running, but the humidity is high. Having a wood burner would probably be the least expensive to operate, you can burn scraps, branches that fall off your trees, trash, etc... It costs me about $75 a season for wood to keep the fireplace stocked and about the same in kero for a season. Propane is expensive, and IMO unless you have a large tank, or don't heat your shop much, is a pain to have to go get a tank filled all the time. My .02... Good luck and saty warm! --dave

wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Reply to
Dave Jackson

Lots of good advice so far. I'll give you my 2c as well. I use a large kero heater for my 2 1/3 bay garage/shop (Just shy of 500 sq ft). Its uninsulated on 2 sides (2 sides adjoin house) garage doors are aluminum type. Mine is

30K BTU if I remember correctly. Lows sells one, I think I got mine there or at the Orange store, I don't remember. It takes a couple of hours to bring it up to a comfortable temp when its really cold (like 20deg F). It can maintain temp in garage at any experienced outside temp so far. Anyway, my kero heater is the circular type, not the bullet type. One similar is here
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In fact that may be the one I have.

OK - Another option - I have a cottage. No insulation. off ground, on piers. Built in 1887. I have an unvented comfortglow 30K BTU Blue Flame propane heater. I have a 100lb bottle that I use a service to fill up. I only use the cottage on weekends and for a week straight in summer. I do not use it after the end of October until about March. We do have some cool nights in the early spring or late fall. Anyway - This heater mounts to the wall, has a thermostat and a blower. It does a great job at heating the cottage (about

900 sq ft). I did not put one of these in my garage because my wall space is a precious commodity.
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luck and let us know what you decide.
Reply to
No

On Mon 28 Nov 2005 02:51:29p, canadian snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

A woodworking coworker told me he invested in the propane version of a Hot Dawg system.

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vents *and* takes its air from the outside. No condensation. He really likes it. Runs it 24/7 to keep the cast iron at 45 or so, turns it up about an hour before he uses the shop. We're in south central Wisconsin. I'd get it myself but he's out in the country and I'm in the city where the red tape is so bad I quit researching before I'd found out about every permit, inspection, and licensed contractor I'd need before I was done. It looks like electric is the only way for me but fortunately it also looks like I'll be okay with a 30 amp heater. (I don't really WANT to brag, but I got 60 amps in my garashop, neener, neener, neener.)

Oh, his shop is a converted two-car. Can't remember the dimensions. I know he's got lots more room than my 20x19.

Reply to
Dan

IMHO, this job cries out for one thing:

SOLAR.

When you install the solar, scrap out the sky light.

Lew

Reply to
Lew Hodgett

You've had a bunch of great suggestions, I'll add another. When I lived in Kodiak Alaska, we used a waste oil heater in our boat barn. It will run off of just about anything petroleum based including used motor oil. Locals would bring oil to us and we heated the shop very cheaply. When no used oil was available we'd burn whatever was cheapest (usually heating oil or diesel) at the time. Just a suggestion.

Reply to
Rich

I used one of those 20 amp construction heaters in a 12 x 20 shed. R12 walls, R20 ceiling, R0 floor. It was home for a few years while I built the big shed.

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ate and slept in the small shed when outside temps. dropped below -40 deg. (Manitoba) No problem. Takes about half an hour to warm the place up to a comfortable temp.

The heater doesn't run continuously. It cycles on and off. Even with the heater running you still have enough power for most tools, one at a time. If you need more power unplug the heater. Once the place is warm your good to work 15 - 20 min. at the coldest temp without heat.

You could always run a #10/2 out there just for the heater.

75' may be a bit too far for #12.

But what the hey. Why buy a $60 heater that may out last you when you can blow a grand or two on a heating system thats worth more than the shed. :) :)

An old friend used to say "Sometimes you think so hard you out smart yourself".

Reply to
L D'Bonnie

Very interesting D'Bonnie, thank you - what youre saying verifies what I already decided to do. (Your old shop sounds identical to mine (which I thought was nice, albiet before i saw the pic of your new shop - any shots of the inside? :) ).)

Anyway, after messing around outside last night I'm not so worried.

With the heater running I could still run my 3 1/4 HP router and my mitre saw at the same time without tripping a breaker. As you note, as long as I can run one machine with the heater on I should be fine. I dont have a DC yet, but the small scale ones im looking at only draw a couple amps, so no big deal there.

Though based on calculations, im still suprised that a 16k BTU heater would be able to warm up and maintain the sq2 footage we are talking about - but then maybe its becasue we are Canadians - warm to us is differnt to warm for a southern america (ie didnt someone earlier say they fliped on the heater when the temp his 60f outside?) :)

So, my current plan is: A forced air Kerosen (possibly propane, im going to research price here), prob ~50k BTU. Ill flip that beast on first thing to warm the place up quick and thats it. Ill leave the electric heater on to keep the chill off and I think ill be good.

Final Question: People arm of water vapour with unvented heaters. Makes sense. Im planning on bringing the de-humidifer from the basement out to the shop for the winter - not likes its needed inside during that time anyway. Any reason why this wouldnt work?

Thanks for responses everyone, all interesting.

Reply to
canadian_woodworker

(snip)

Well... label on my shop dehumidifier sez only use at temps 60 degrees and higher. Coil freezes up otherwise. I suppose you could aim the heater at the coil, enough to melt the ice but not to warm it up enough so that it doesn't work. But then, all you're doing is evaporating the water back into the air. As I think and write... you may be able to put the back of the dehumidifier sticking outside, with a heater on it... nahhh... too geeky.

With respect to large hunks of cast iron, though, I grabbed a couple of magnetic engine block heaters that I'm going to be sticking to the large hunks this winter. They're about 100 watts or so, but left on all the time, they should keep the cast iron warm enough to avoid condensation on the "cold night/damp morning" transitions. My shop is not heated full-time, but I did just pick up an

80000BTU reznor shop heater (really too big for my space, but the price was right) that might find a home in there -- as soon as I plumb for gas. And lots of it.

"Chip" in Columbus

Reply to
Chip Chester

On Tue 29 Nov 2005 08:29:31a, canadian snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

I have my doubts but can't quote anything to support my theory that a dehumidifier would not take the water out of the air fast enough so it wouldnt affect the cast iron.

The other side of the coin is, what the heck could it hurt? Certainly couldn't make things worse, and the worst case is, you have to sand some rust off some cast iron. Certainly that will get old pretty fast but it don't do it no real harm.

I think the idea of a propane heater with an electric helper isn't a bad way to go. The only way we learn about this stuff is ask questions, take our best guess with what we hope won't make things worse, and then go do it and see what happens.

Maybe placing the dehumidifier as close to the heater as possible would make a difference. Probably not right in front of the flame, though.

Reply to
Dan

Are you worried about a dust explosion or a simple fire started in a nearby dust pile? If its the former, my router's brushes throw off enough sparks to be an issue, and I'm sure you have some tools that do as well.

Reply to
Joe

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