CPSC Proposes New Safety Rule for Tablesaws

[Ed Pawlowski]

Doubt it. SS is owned/run by a lawyer.

[Scott Lurndal]

Look at it this way - that is 175 out of 350 million each day, or

3 per state per day. Doesn't seem that large a number, I don't believe that 3 per day in any of top 10 metropolitan areas would be unusual.

[dpb]

On 05/26/2017 8:00 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote: ...

No. Only a small fraction of that 350M are even close to a tablesaw in their lifetime, what more on a given day...

I still think it's high.

[dpb]

...

Yeah, we see that emphasized over and over in their filing of over a hundred patents as well as the aggressive pursuit of Bosch.

Gass has pontificated about how he's all worried about safety but his actions clearly indicate it's really all about the money.

I also think he has a personal vendetta against the large manufacturers that wouldn't kowtow to his demands on licensing originally before he finally did form SS and now he's been out to make their existence miserable ever since; using the CPSA as a tool/pawn is just a road to that goal. I wonder how much they've greased palms inside the agency there to get them to come in line with essentially providing them the monopoly position he's been working towards by government fiat.

[Leon]

Hard to say if disabling would be reasonably possible. I do know this, if I were the one responsible for anyone that may get hurt I would not allow anyone to bypass the system. Considering the issue that Ryobi, had with the law suite and loosing to the guy that cut his fingers off a few years ago, I think the jury might burn the guilty party at the stake if someone had bypassed the braking system.

[Leon]

I was going to go there, ;~) but out of the 350 million "maybe" only

250 mil are in the working group. Still a relative small number are getting hurt considering the size of the pool of woodworking tradesmen.

[dpb]

On 05/26/2017 9:15 AM, Leon wrote: ...

Oh, certainly in today's litigation-prone climate, "fer shure, good buddy!"

There's no explaining stupidity/ignorance/emotion over reason with a jury other than siding against "deep pockets" even in the case of absolutely rampant stupidity by the plaintiff in doing what they did to cause the injury.

About as stupid as the McDonald's coffee between the legs.

[dpb]

On 05/26/2017 9:19 AM, Leon wrote: ...

But out of the 250M, only a small fraction actually use a tablesaw...

I _STILL_ think it's too high... :)

[Scott Lurndal]

There was just another one of these in the news recently:

[Scott Lurndal]

I'm wondering if they're including circular saw injuries in the numbers - the contractor who replaced my windows last year cut off one of his fingers a few days prior to my job. Typical case - he was holding a board in one hand and the saw in another (and he wasn't a youngster, either, and he even knew better).

[nailshooter41]

OK, leave you alone for one day and look what happens. You personalized my post to the gov and made it your own. Leon...

I never (at least to my memory)referred to "SawStop" in my diatribe to the government. Rereading it, I didn't see SawStop mentioned by name. My refer ences were generic, and the braking systems were referred to as "devices", "mechanisms", and "apparatus".

INTENTIONALLY, I did not want to limit the intent of my scribblings to be d irected at SawStop only, but rather intended the post to express my distast e for ALL blade braking systems that would be required by the government. If this regulation passes, there will be a certain amount of time that pass es, and Gass' patents will in at least part expire. But since he is aggress ively trying to block anyone from developing or marketing a blade brake dev ice, we have no idea what is in development now from other companies. No d oubt he would beg, borrow, or steal information that would allow him to blo ck or slow its development or presentation.

I think the group ethos of being blinded by the asshat Gass keeps the bigge r picture from being seen. We don't need the government adding more cost, a device of doubtful value to some, and more bureaucracy to our way of doin g business. I think that a consumer should have a choice, and I think the government should stop looking for small problems that need to be fixed.

Other devices will be introduced if this becomes a mandate, rest assured. Retro devices will be, too. Soon, all insurance companies will require tha t any company with a saw will be required to have a blade brake or they wil l be denied coverage as the machine is deemed unsafe. Believe me, it will spread to the home shop as well. If it is found that the home shop (just t hinking if we know anyone like that...!) is used for commercial enterprise you must follow the rules of the insurance company. If you are manufacturi ng goods for sale at your home, you must inform your insurance company to m aintain valid coverage. How soon will it be that a question pops up on you r application for homeowners insurance asking that?

And why just table saws? I am reminded of a line from one of my favorite m ovies, "Outlaw Josie Wales". "Doin' good ain't got no end". Band saws (esp ecially the big boys) are pretty damn dangerous, so no doubt future regulat ions will protect us from them, too. And why not tighten up the requiremen ts of blade brakes on other saws? Two of my miter saws have them, one does n't, and the other has one but it doesn't work (worn out). So do I start l eaving the ones without blade brakes at home?

Nope. I am a bigger picture guy and that was the intent of my post. I don 't want more regulation as it is a slippery slope employed by civil servant s that needs to constantly find new things to regulate in order to keep the ir job. It has to be self sustaining or it "could" go away. So regulation leads to more regulation.

The generic references to braking device were to express that I don't want more regulation, leading to more regulation, which leads to more business c ost, then enforcement cost of new regulation as well as compliance costs. I am looking at this situation as to how it will affect my business now, bu t also how other regulations have affected it over the last decades.

I don't care how long it takes to change the mechanism is a SawStop saw. I t could fix itself and in context of my comments to the govt, it has no bea ring. I don't care what it takes to reset the Bosch machine, anything that DeWalt, Hitachi, Ridgid or anyone else comes us with. I don't want to sta rt that ball rolling.

So a couple of last things. First, I have used the SawStop saw and it is a completely superior product. I have scribbled here many times how valuabl e I think the technology is, and if I have the scratch when I buy my next t able saw it will indeed be a SawStop. In the last 40 years, almost every si ngle time I have been hurt on the job it has been because I am over tired, pushing to get things finished, and it is at the end of a string of long da ys. Others have the luxury of saying "well, when you get to that point you should stop", and "if you are that tired it takes twice as long to do the job so you might as well quit and rest, hit it hard tomorrow" and horseshit like that. Not the way it works in a service business. At least not for long, anyway. Regardless of mitigating conditions, people want their work done as THEY think it should be done.

Last thing, it makes me laugh think that job site guys won't "get the job d one". When I had an old table saw (110V) that had a broken off/on switch o n it, I replaced it. The switch had some kind of surge protecting device t o keep the saw from overloading the power, and if it thought you were pulli ng too much power the saw would switch off. A 20amp outdoor light switch f rom he lumberyard fixed that switch just fine.

When I was out working in the country on a ranch house, my only saw on the job had the trigger burn up. Now I have me and a crew of three with no saw . I had an old 25' extension cord that had a bad female side on it, so I c lipped it off, direct wired the saw and my helper had to plug it in when I wanted it to run. As an experienced saw man, it wasn't too bad. I would l ine up 10-15 cuts, let the guys nail why I marked out the next cuts.

Years ago, my big compressor was a 220V SpeedAire monster. No one had the plug configuration we need on the 220V as it was out in a subdivision and t hey only used the clothes dryer style recepticles as that is all they had o n the electrician's trucks. I bought the receptacle we needed, got some ten gauge wire, hooked up the receptcale to the wires and put it in a 220V han dy box. On the other end, I stripped back the wires about and inch, folded them back on themselves, and pounded the copper flat enough that it would fit in the job site plugs. Used that device for about 2 years, every singl e work day (we only had one compressor).

The point is, there is always a way around a problem, whether it is real or perceived. NEVER, ever, rely on your employees (me included, apparently.. .) to do the "right" thing.

Logically,

[dpb]

I'm virtually certain of it plus quite a few other categories as well I'm guessing (bandsaw, RAS, etc., etc., etc., ...) as they're just ER statistics and I really, Really, REALLY doubt there's much actual investigation gone into actually defining the precise situation of the accident.

I'd suspect almost any such injury gets thrown into a general category.

If had the time, it would be interesting to try to actually delve into the data itself, but it's planting season and then harvest and then and and then and and...

[dpb]

On 05/26/2017 12:15 PM, [e-mail] wrote: ...

...

+2,348 (E6) :)

I was intending to add that point, meself, Robert.

It's rampant throughout gov't starting with the legislator themselves--all they can do is pass legislation; they have no other way to accomplish anything.

So "when the only tool is a hammer" mantra applies; they create an agency in response to some perceived problem, then the agency like CPSA becomes self-perpetuating.

Maybe the best approach would be to bring it to the attention of some of Trump's aides as another case of overreach and he'd issue an Executive Order for us... :)

He has at least derailed WOTUS for a while that way...a _major_ win for everybody excepting the Corps of Engineers and EPA.

[Scott Lurndal]

Hey, at least you're not walking the rows of soybeans with a cornknife cutting lamb's quarters and ragweed. Oh my aching back.

My grandfather refused to use herbicides, and when the beans got tall enough, the cultivator on the Farmall B was no longer useful, so the grandkids earned a bit of spending money.

He also was using a binder and threshing machine until the late 70's, hot, sweaty, dusty work - particularly baling up the pile of straw.

[dpb]

Well, we're pretty small operation by today's standards for out here but not _that_ backward, no... :) What was above-average-sized when growing up is now on the smaller end for those without off-farm income.

We were/are all dryland so no beans; our row crops were milo and various feed crops for silage. We did still use the old string-tie binder for at least some feed well into the '70s as well, bringing them to a stationary chopper for use as dry matter during winter to mix with ensilage.

Were doing the row crop work with Farmall M's then--4 row lister, knife sled and we then used a set of small upturned sweeps to bust back the ridge as generally the last cultivation pass. Only rarely had the cultivator out if got too weedy again after the sled pass and still too early to throw back.

Problem with beans back then was there was no Roundup ready trait so any broadleaf herbicide to kill the weeds would also get the beans. That at least was advantage for milo/feed crops; they were grass-related and

2-4,D-tolerant. Altho nobody sprayed much back then like do today.

When we moved to TN was an area still raising a lot of tobacco -- they let school out early in spring to let kids help with planting which was done by hand and then again in fall for picking. Was plenty of hoe and other handwork for 'em all in between as well. Really knew had had it easy as a kid when watching them... :)

That was late '70s early '80s still...almost no tobacco left by time we came back in '99.

[Leon]

I think to be fair, Gass is in this to make money, we all work to make money, that is our society.

When you watch a commercial about a local cancer treatment center or a family physicians group, dental group, they all talk about your care and well being. None of them would be there if they were not being paid and if some one infringed on a protected right they would be going after that party too.

Apple has countless times gone after Samsung for patent infringement.

Anyway, at least Gass has introduced and implemented a significant "safety" to the industry. AND he offered the technology to all of the big players before producing his saw. Sure he was in it for the money but at least he was also offering a safety innovation that would prevent thousands of injuries.

While some look at buying in at the offering as too much money, I look at this way. Those companies that turned Gass down, for what ever reason, chose to compromise their future customers safety because the cost would cut into their bottom line too much. It was all about the money for them also, they chose to not offer a safer product because it would cost them extra money and affect their bottom line.

With 20/20 hind sight, I wonder how they would look at the offerings today considering their bottom lines today. Obviously Bosch has looked and have decided to go for that market after the fact and Gass rightly so is protecting his investment. Considering the fact that many, and a really big hitter like Delta was, are almost gone, they not looking out for our safety was a bad business decision. I can't tell you the last time I saw a Delta TS in a store.

Also consider that Gass did not have a manufacturing company or facility, his expenses and risk were going to be much greater than any of the other guys and the other guy fought tooth and nail for him to fail.

Yes, Gass is in it for the money but the other guys are not innocent of this fact either.

I see the competitors like vultures circling the food waiting for the patents to run out so that they can again have a chance to "look out" for their future customers safety.

I totally respect every ones views on this subject. Every one has a different perspective.

FWIW I believe Gass has been a woodworker most of his life and is actually a patent attorney. If the competition did not look into his back ground and realize he would probably have iron clad patents they did not do enough research before turning him down.

[dpb]

On 05/26/2017 2:50 PM, Leon wrote: ...

I have no issue with that.

...

.

...

Maybe, but there's where the lack of being in on the discussions leads to insufficient knowledge as to have a real reading. The limited discussions I saw from folks at Powermatic, etc., had a lot to do with liability issues and indemnification from the 2nd-party vendor for a product they didn't develop as I understood it, and it appeared Gass wanted all the royalty but none of the liability if there were a failure. Typical lawyer-talk.

But, I wasn't there; that's just partially what I've read and then partially inferred from what wasn't said or how things were couched in those interviews and that not a single vendor bit is, in my mind, quite telling that the terms really were onerous/unacceptable.

Where I _really_ have a beef with Gass/SS is in using CPSC to be the bully in the lunchroom for him; sure he took the risk in forming SS--bully on him for doing so and he's got a fine product and seems to be doing well.

But to use the club of the US gov't to get a monopoly--not kosher in my book.

[Leon]

LOL

NO! you did not mention SS and I figured you were speaking figuratively. More in terms of the possibility of other styles of safety "add ons" that may be prone to be problematic. And to that I agree totally.

Totally agreed! Let the consumer make the decision.

Well, I'm covered. :~) BUT I did make my old and current agents aware of my status and neither were concerned at all that I was a smalllll business.

Agreed.

And more to the point, the customer does not think you should take longer when you get tired. We don't have that luxury.

LOL...... The last kitchen job that Swingman and I worked together on was the straw bale house out in the country. The guy that was sanding the floors with his 240 volt floor sander had a "deluxe" extension cord. I don't recall what the wall end of the cord looked like, I could not take my eyes off of the extension cord connection to the sander cord.

The extension was stiff Romex with bare wires sticking out and twisted to the bare wires on the end of the sander cord. Not even wire nuts to cover the connections. The safety steps he took was spreading the ends of the connections as far apart as they would go...

Anyway I don't like the way things are coming about with regulations. I do like the SS but we are probably at a point of no return and that was probably several years ago and in some cases, decades ago. Regardless of how all of this plays out I will not be refusing to buy brands because of how the public feels about the company.

[Leon]

I'm sure the ER's are too busy to ponder over reporting accidents that occurred by what type of circular saw was being used, brand, color, etc. :!)

[Leon]

I'm certain that a lot of this goes on in other industries but because we are affected with our woodworking tools it is more more of a touchy subject.

If you will recall the crap that Microsoft went through for giving away their web browser... That was considered an unfair business practice.

My wife and I have been shopping new cars lately and there is something going on there too. Apple is showing up in a lot of new cars these days and I understood manufacturers were reluctant to add the Apple "Car Play" systems to their infotainment systems. I recall when there were only about 5 car companies that offered this feature. Now this is offered in brands that I have never heard of. I can see a stink coming from the big suppliers of GPS software that car manufacturers have been using. With Apple Car Play you no longer need to buy GPS. Your Apple Phone will display the Apple Map application on the big radio display and steer you most anywhere you want to go.

Anyway

What you said was well said and an excellent point of view!