Thickening a liquid

On 14/05/2013 09:11, fred wrote:

faffing around waiting up to two weeks to see if the alternative is effective. I know Roundup works
All decent glyphosate formulations work. More fool you for buying it from Monsanto for ripoff prices. At least buy the Zeneca version if you must pay through the nose for a fancy brand name product.
Be careful these days as they seem to sell things to the public called Roundup that contain other weedkiller components than just glyphosate! Not sure that Roundup Ready crops would like them very much.
I love the way that increasingly they sell prediluted stuff as weedkiller and windscreen wash. Vastly overpriced impure water!!!
A glyphosate kill always takes about two weeks to take full effect - it is a translocating weedkiller and needs that time to circulate around inside the plant if it is to be properly effective.
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I buy the most concentrated Roundup I can find, which seems to be the 360gm/litre formulation. This costs around £40, but lasts me 10 years (just bought my second one last year).
Anyone else make a high-strength solution?
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Tim

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On Tue, 14 May 2013 10:26:37 +0100, Tim Streater

I've not used it extesnsively, just a few occasions around my lot. I found that the recommended dilution had no effect on the woodier plants to upped the does to 5% iirc. A couple of months later, all the woody brambles just tipped up and died, for good. Marvellous stuff.
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snip

5% solution. If my maths is correct thats 20:1, no ?
Thats the dilution I always use. Kills brambles eventually but as they are still dangerous even when dead, so have to be cut out anyway I prefer to cut them back to the ground. They grow again I know but I gain great satisfaction from emasculating them. One tripped me up last week. Fell flat on my face and cracked a rib. I think they may be fighting back.
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wrote:

still dangerous even when dead, so have to be cut out anyway I prefer to cut them back to the ground. They grow again I know but I gain great satisfaction from emasculating them.

They are just biding their time...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007jrfm
Nick
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wrote:

Yep. Iirc, the packaging said 3% to start with and I ended up with 5% (or perhaps 8%), it wasn't a hugely expensive or highly concentrated exercise to find the sweet spot which killed them off.

still dangerous even when dead, so have to be cut out anyway I prefer to cut them back to the ground. They grow again I know but I gain great satisfaction from emasculating them.

Bleedin' Triffids, they are.
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There are/have been chemical sprays intended for woody plants. The EU has caused some to be withdrawn.
The place to look is.. https://secure.pesticides.gov.uk/pestreg/
Grazon was a good one.
Broadshot?
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On 22/05/13 20:22, Tim Lamb wrote:

Roundup kills brambles . At 10* normal strength. On the leaves.
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Maybe. You are supposed to avoid killing the top growth without leaving time for the chemical to translocate to the roots.
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AIUI, some plants just take longer than others to get offed. I carried a sprayer across the lawn a couple of weeks ago, without realising it was dribbling. Now I have an unexpected brown path across the lawn.
By contrast, take japanese knotweed. 15 years ago there was a clump of it, which, not knowing what it was, I had dug up and the bed rotovated. Suddenly instead of one plant I had a billion, as I then discovered that knotweed regenerates from 0.25" or so of root.
Even after digging up and burning the rootball, it still took me 7 years of roundup applications to kill it off entirely.
Some stuff is tougher than others and it's not clear that just spraying on super-strength is the way to go, rather than following the instructions.
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Tim

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On Thu, 23 May 2013 08:35:12 +0100, Tim Lamb

What happened with my brambles was an apparent non-occurrence then suddenly, about two months later, with the onset of the colder months, they died off. I presume the sap had withdrawn to the root ball and killed it. Magical, it was. Honestly until that occurred, I was beginning to think they were indestructible.
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A glyphosate-based windscreen wash? Ouch!
Theo
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On Monday 13 May 2013 08:29 fred wrote in uk.d-i-y:

Gelatin I would have thought...
I cannot see how salt could possibly work???
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On 13/05/2013 09:25, Tim Watts wrote:

The waves at sea would be very interesting if salt had a really substantial thickening effect.
I note that the thickener used for Roundup Gel is a trade secret.
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On 13/05/2013 09:43, polygonum wrote:

Interesting that the COSHH data sheet classes it as non hazardous... presumably to avoid disclosure of much detail about its composition.
http://msds.duluxgroup.com/pdf/shess-en-cds-020-000000023067.pdf
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On 13/05/2013 10:23, John Rumm wrote:

My guess would be poly ethylene oxide. Any competent firm would be able to analyse and reverse engineer anyway.
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He might have got the idea from http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title tergent#Washing_up_liquid "Low cost washing liquids contain less detergent and are thickened with salt."
http://chemistscorner.com/why-does-salt-thicken-shampoos/ http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/surfactants-building-viscosity.html
But unless you want some sort of soap/detergent in the Roundup too, not really relevant. I suppose it might help penetrate pores in the leaves. Or kill any greenfly on the grass :-)
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     snipped-for-privacy@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Alan Braggins) writes:

One of the difficulties in designing glyphosate preparations is including something which makes the plant absorb it without killing the leaf on contact (which would stop it from working).
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On 13/05/2013 12:38, Alan Braggins wrote:

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/surfactants-building-viscosity.html

There is already a powerful surfactant in the Roundup formulation - in fact the wetting agent is significantly more toxic than the glyphosate!
Wallpaper paste is the cheapest thickener and easily available. It won't keep very well as the starch becomes food for yeasts PDQ.
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Martin Brown
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Plant leaves are usually coated in wax. Monsanto brought out a product to aid leaf penetration, Roundup Biactive? Within weeks agricultural crops advisers were recommending an *off the shelf* additive to the standard version.
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