Re: Bit O.T. Speeding ... ?

[polygonum]

Of course - typo there - "hard shoulder".

[Nightjar]

It is not a permitted use under Regulation 7 (2) and, therefore, is illegal under Regulation 9. You need to learn how to use the slip roads properly or you risk three points and a fine.

I happen to know an ex-M25 traffic policeman and I can assure you that they take improper use of the hard shoulder very seriously.

Colin Bignell

[Man at B&Q]

Which bit of "You should ... not ... use the hard shoulder" in the Highway Code are you having difficulty with? As you are such an expert, you will know which rule I am referring to.

MBQ

[Man at B&Q]

I think that rules out anything driven by Dennis, anywhere.

MBQ

[John Williamson]

Paragraph 2 "...other emergency..." If someone suddenly occupies the previously clear bit of motorway a driver was planning to use, that's an emergency. I'm sure the police would prefer a driver to use the hard shoulder to avoid a collision under these circumstances than stopping at the end of the acceleration lane, which is what I've seen done many times.

While we're at it, can we teach people that traffic joining the motorway does *not* have right of way......

[Adrian]

999 times out of 1000, it's not an emergency, it's merely a failure of observation and planning. Vehicles don't suddenly appear from nowhere.

If there's another vehicle which _might_ change from L2 to L1 and fill the gap you're going for, then you simply adjust your speed so that you're aiming for clearer tarmac. It's that simple.

B'sides, Dennis's original statement which started this subthread was...

"If you do get it wrong".

An admission of failure, not an unforeseen "emergency".

[Tim Lamb]

Or you are driving an under powered vehicle and the access lane is uphill.

From a practical POV I have to go with Dennis!

[polygonum]

Even if at that point it became an emergency, it is one that is usually avoidable by careful consideration of the situation by the joiner.

I also wonder about use of indicators on slip roads. My view has always been that having them flashing all the way from top to bottom and onto the carriageway is entirely pointless - it is obvious to everyone that a vehicle going down a slip road is (almost certainly) going to join the motorway. So the indicator should be used as you decide exactly when to move over onto the main carriageway.

Views?

[Adrian]

I drive 2cvs. A lot. And an old VW camper. The quickest vehicle in our fleet currently is a 1.1 Pug 205. I live a couple of miles from a choice of M25 junctions.

Yet I've never ONCE had to use the shoulder when joining the motorway. Nor have I ever once seen an HGV do so.

Driving a low powered vehicle is not an excuse for poor observation, it's a reason why you need tip-top observation and planning.

[Adrian]

Speed apart, can you describe the difference between those two scenarios, please? Other, of course, than point-of-view?

It seems to me that they're very similar.

Somebody tries to merge from the slip into lane 1, except they can't because it's occupied. Who's to blame? Simple. The driver joining. Always.

[Tim Streater]

The driver joining should give way, certainly. But we're talking about a driver who planned to enter a space, and who then found that some other bugger went in and occupied that space he'd planned to move into. What's he supposed to do now?

I suppose he could ask for a replay, reverse all the traffic up so he can have another go and plan an alternative. Or perhaps you have a smarter idea that doesn't involve frothing at the mouth

[dennis]

Of course it is, its an emergency. What do you think the hard shoulder is for if not to make the motorway safer?

[polygonum]

Using the hard shoulder may be safer than side-swiping an existing occupant of the first lane, but it is hardly a safe way of joining, so should be avoided. And heaven help you if you need to do this in places where there is no hard shoulder.

[dennis]

So lets get this.. you drive down the slip road and pull into the traffic even if there isn't a gap big enough for you when you get there. Or maybe you do an emergency stop at the end and have a queue of stationary traffic behind you on the slip road while you sit there and wait until rush hour has finished and there is a huge gap to start off into.

I would expect them to do so. There is no way you would get points for what I said. Why don't you ask him so he can explain how to use a hard shoulder to you?

[dennis]

8<

So you think they build hard shoulders to use up more land? And to think that many drivers think its there to be used in emergencies. Maybe you should ask the authorities to fit armco so all these mistaken drives can't use the hard shoulder.

[dennis]

8<

Given what some of the posters have said here there is no chance of teaching them anything, certainly not how to drive.

[dennis]

It need not be your error. What are you going to do if the driver in front gets it wrong and stops? Are you going to sit there at the end of the slip road waiting for a big gap or are you going to use the hard shoulder for what its there for?

[dennis]

Oh, and where exactly is there a motorway where you have to join the running lane from a slip road with no hard shoulder and where traffic is allowed to be in the running lane? I don't know of any, not even on the motorways that allow use of the hard shoulder during peaks.

[Adrian]

Thank you for proving that your observation and planning sucks dead goats. For fun, not even for money.

[Man at B&Q]

That doesn't appear in the text I quoted from *The Highway Code*.

MBQ