[OT] The fish rots from the head

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43535710
Strange that coming from a man who laid a wreath at grave of the planner of the massacre of Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympics, and calls Hammas and Hezbollah his friends. I am sure it was all done in the name of free speech...
I wonder for how long he is going to get suspended from the Labour party?
But at least Shami write-whatever-you-like-in-the-report-and-I'll-sign-it-as-long-as-I-get-my-seat-in-the-lords Chakrabarti told us that there is nothing to worry about it.
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I'm sorry but this is a load of old tosh. people have views colooured by their life experiences. If people do not like something then fine, don't bother about it, luckily, as far as I'm aware, Mural painters do not dictate polices in this country yet. In my view there are also many Jews out there witth equally blinkered views of gentiles and everyone else, so you are never ever going to convince one mindset that they are wrong. its about time we all agreed to differ and also agreed to have an open and free society. Brian
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On 26/03/2018 09:59, Brian Gaff wrote:

But one man's freedom to paint an offensive mural contradicts another man's freedom to walk down the street and not be offended by it. And if the mural stirs up racial hatred, then it may lead to someone else's freedom not to be beaten up being infringed.
The short version: You don't have an open and free society if everybody is free to do and say just whatever they want.
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On 26/03/2018 10:31, GB wrote:

I totally agree.
My point though was about good old friendly and principled granddad Corbyn:
There is no argument that the mural could have easily been painted in Nazi Germany 1933-1945.
Even if, as he claimed, he did not notice the problem at the time, he was contacted directly in 2015 for a comment about his Facebook contribution, but chose to ignore it. So his first reply was clearly a lie.
He is 100% entitled to his views and his opinions (feel free to add Russia and Venezuela to the pot) which are well known and documented. But does he really think that anyone (over the age of 15 and/or with an IQ of over 80) actually believes his sudden change of mind?
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Since when was there a freedom not to be offended?

Then the person who infringed that freedom should be punished for it. Not everyone and everything that might have "led" to it.
--
Jack

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On 27/03/2018 08:46, Handsome Jack wrote:

I assume that you've never been subjected to racist comments and insults, then?

But what about the perpetrator's right not to be punished? I'm just pointing out that freedom is not an absolute right and one person's freedom to do something may infringe someone else's freedom not to have it done.
As a non-contentious example, consider planning laws. People often want to extend their property in such a way as to intrude on other people's use of their land. There's a balance that needs to be struck between the opposing rights.
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Stupid reply.

Stupid reply.

Duh.

Yes, but in that situation both parties have acknowledged rights. That's not the case with the right to free speech. There is a such a right. There isn't a right to not be offended.
--
Jack

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On 27/03/2018 11:16, Handsome Jack wrote:

So, you keep asserting. If you had been subjected to racist abuse, as I have been, your views might be different. As it is, where you have marked my replies as stupid above, that demonstrates a lack of empathy on your part.
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What do you expect when you ask me about a perpetrator's right not to be punished? What answer could I possibly give to that?
--
Jack

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On 28/03/2018 11:31, Handsome Jack wrote:

I was just pointing out (reductio ad absurdum) that no rights are absolute.
But we are about to get repetitive, because I'll say: One man's right to freedom of expression infringes another man's right not to be offended by that expression, or indeed that expression may be downright abusive.
Then you'll say there is no right to not be offended.
And I'll say "sez you".
And so on.
It's a shame to delete the artwork, but as it was painted in the wrong place it had to go.
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On 27/03/2018 09:27, GB wrote:

I've been the subject of ageist abuse and that's worse than racist abuse because there's nothing wrong with any race but there's plenty wrong with being old.
Bill
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On 26/03/18 09:59, Brian Gaff wrote:

I'll be able to tell you more later - I'm going along to the Parliament Sq protest tonight so I'll see if I can ask some...
My understanding is that, not down to just one incident, but rather the drip drip of a number of incidents and comments from senior Labour people, some jewish people are feeling quite nervous of Labour as it's all a bit reminiscent of Germany ("it started in a small way, like this..." are words I heard recently)
Whether that view reflects those of many or not I might find out later.
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Wonder if there are any lengths you Labour haters will stop at in an attempt to discredit them?
--
*Vegetarians taste great*

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Dave Plowman wrote:

Surely if Tim is going to voice his dislike of antisemitism that's the right thing to do?
If someone was only interested in sneakily hurting Labour wouldn't they just sit tight-lipped, knowing that the Jewish community would be unlikely to vote for Labour/Corbyn because they had discredited themselves?
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On 26/03/18 15:01, Andy Burns wrote:

I have just answered this in another post, so I won't repeat it here :)
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I'm very uncomfortable that it seems perfectly OK to criticise any Islamic state or person - including those who are our allies or UK citizens - but anything negative said about Israel or one of the Jewish religion immediately brings forth cries of antisemitism.
--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional *

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On 26/03/2018 16:36, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

It sounds to me as if you are definitely supporting the right party.
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On Mon, 26 Mar 2018 16:36:09 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"

Criticising a state is quite legitimate. Israel can be legitimately criticised for some of its actions towards its neighbours, as can some Muslim states, recognised or otherwise. But to criticise or tolerate criticism of a Jewish or Muslim person or group merely because they're Jewish or Muslim is unacceptable, and puts the person doing the criticising into the same moral sewer as the likes of Harry.
Gerald Kaufman was an outspoken critic of some of Israel's actions, but you could hardly accuse him of being anti-Semitic! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Kaufman#Criticism_of_Israel
--

Chris

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On 26/03/18 20:07, Chris Hogg wrote:

+1
I've told jewish folks I campaign against unstunned animal slaughter - but I can separate a criticism of 2 Abrahamic faiths from my day to day interactions with followers of either faith. They were perfectly cool with that.
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There is a strong strand of pro-Israeli propaganda which calls jewish critics of Israeli policies "self-hating jews". Most of Corbyn's "anti-semitic" friends are in fact critics of Israel's policy rather than racists, although I realise that may not apply to all of them. Currently Israel is desperately trying to discourage Hamas from coming round to a position of recognising the Israeli state, as their failure to do so is the main propaganda weapon Israel has against them. It is a shame they don't have the confidence to call the Israeli bluff.
--

Roger Hayter

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