Ot: Or not. tower fire...

[Martin Brown]

You are deliberately splitting hairs here. It was so flammable it went up like an oversized fire lighter with a burn rate of 2m/minute.

The only thing that is certain at the moment is that the concrete building was encased in a layer of cladding that as installed in that configuration was well more than an order of magnitude more flammable than its paper specification (if the manufacturers are to be believed).

The other thing that is certain is that the horizontal fire breaks that should prevent the fire from moving from floor to floor were either defective, not present or ineffective (or a combination of those).

The cladding was dodgy by any reasonable definition and it seems from more recent reports was already banned in the USA for taller buildings. There was a more fire safe version of the outer cladding available at slightly higher cost.

I have been looking at the fire testing specs online ISO 1182 and ISO

1716 (I'm too mean to pay for the standards themselves) but I think I now see how you might have a material that passes the ISO lab tests but is absolutely lethal in large flat panels on the side of a building. See:

No disrepect intended to the company making the ISO 1182 tester - it isn't their fault that like with car exhaust emissions tests manufacturers will game the system to pass the specific tests used.

It is a case of what you measure gets controlled. The ISO measurements need to reflect how building cladding will be used in the real world.

[The Natural Philosopher]

More foool you.

The failure mode on fridges is already common. And no, the motor wouldn't be running in butane

Actually most fridges use modified CFCFs.

Of course 'concern over climate change' has lead to use of iso pentane etc on some types of fridge

[Roland Perry]

In message , at 21:05:40 on Thu, 15 Jun 2017, Andy Burns remarked:

In a rare comment from the council (they appear to be very successfully avoiding the media) it is alleged the residents said they didn't want sprinklers because of the disruption that would be caused during their installation. It does remind me a little of all those offices with fire doors propped open by a fire extinguisher (more of a trip hazard than a tool, should there be a fire).

[Andy Burns]

But that's a separate item, the flats should have been individual one hour rated fire cells, with no regard to what type of fire short of high explosives. The scandal is not the fridge; the cladding or the way it was fitted, or some related factor *is*.

[The Natural Philosopher]

yup. Its all the fridge owners fault, If he had closed the windows before he left....

[Andy Burns]

Never mind offices, it happens in fire stations ..

[The Other Mike]

R600a aka isobutane is the refrigerant of choice on a shedload of domestic stuff at every price level from Beko to Miele these days as well as on commercial fridges and freezers. R290 aka propane is used in many air conditioning systems.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Did they take a vote of all the tenants? Or just a few to get the answer they were looking for? If they are going to save a few quid by using dodgy cladding, they're not likely to want to splash out on the much more expensive sprinkler system.

It was a major internal refurbishment. New kitchens and bathrooms, and presumably a re-wire. Also the fitting of individual boilers to replace the communal heating system, so new gas pipes to each flat.

Those on the unofficial resident's group seemed well aware of that coroner's report saying sprinklers should be retro fitted.

[Capitol]

Seems to be time for a rethink. I did a search on fridge fires this morning, the results were very depressing, seems a common cause of house fires and no regulation of the materials used. In the fire service test, the fridge nearly set fire to the test room!

[The Other Mike]

Yes, there are plenty of things internal and external on a fridge / freezer are capable of supporting a flame and liberating nasties, that has been the case for more than half a century. It's not just the refrigerant.

R600a as replacement of R134a in household refrigerators

1993 launch of the Greenfreeze refrigerator, developed by Greenpeace in cooperation with East German manufacturer Foron (formerly VEB dkk Scharfenstein), proving that R600a, although flammable, cause no problems in a household refrigerator.The campaign from Greenpeace has put so much pressure on the traditional manufacturers (Bosch-Siemens, Liebherr, Miele, AEG, Electrolux, Bauknecht) that they decided to accelerate the introduction of R600a and to phase out the recently introduced R134a!Also in 1993 Danfoss Compressors (Secop) introduced compressors for R600a. Today more then 700 million domestic refrigerators globally use R600a.By 2020 75% of the global production will be based on R600a

[Roland Perry]

In message , at 10:14:22 on Fri, 16 Jun

2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

We'll have to see. There doesn't seem to be a lack of a local pressure group to check that such decisions are taken after sufficient discussion.

[tabbypurr]

We know that. My point it that they may have not known that at the time it was specified.

NT

[Cursitor Doom]

So who's going to pay for it? AFAICS, pretty much *all* the inhabitants of that block are unemployable for various reasons. The Council (IOW the local taxpayers) pay their rent for them. The Council (IOW the local taxpayers) paid for the cladding, too. Where's the return on the taxpayers' outlay going to come from, FFS? In an ideal world, yes, we'd like to house everyone to the highest possible standard but that would be simply unsustainable (not that that matters to the Lefties, of course, who just want to wreck the country anyway). If we do everything the Dave Plowmans of this world want us to do we'll pretty soon end up broke like Venezuala.

[Chris Hogg]

Taxpayers are not a profit-making organisation. ROI is not a consideration.

There's no excuse for not making these older tower blocks conform to full modern safety regulations, bearing in mind all the recommendations made after fires in other tower blocks both in the UK and abroad which have obviously been flagrantly ignored or regarded as too expensive.

The whole business of modernising older tower blocks is a total disgrace, and those responsible for specifying inappropriate cladding or not carrying out the appropriate work, whether that's fitting sprinklers, effective fire alarms, fire escapes or whatever, should be named and prosecuted for dereliction of duty at least, and possibly manslaughter.

[tabbypurr]

The rent goes up. Whatever way you cut it it's going to be the taxpayer. And for once I think we should, housing people in high rise firelighters is not ok.

NT

[Roland Perry]

In message , at

10:59:45 on Thu, 15 Jun 2017, Robin remarked:

At east one of the nationals is saying: "KCTMO, the housing association which ran Grenfell Tower on behalf of Kensington and Chelsea Council..."

[Andy Burns]

If (as I believe is the case) only new builds and not refurbs require e.g. sprinklers, then you're unlikely to get many sprinklers fitted on refurbs, how does that leave any opportunity for prosecution? Everyone can say "We were just following the rules" ...

[newshound]

It's interesting to speculate about the effectiveness of sprinklers in this specific case, with your windows shattered by the fire outside and a fair amount of toxic smoke getting into the flats. The good thing about sprinklers is that presumably everyone would have headed for the stairwells. But then an effective, loud "Evacuate now" alarm would have done that almost as well, at a fraction of the cost and disruption to fit.

Of course this does need the stairwells to remain illuminated and relatively smoke-free. I suppose that relies on the main flat doors having closers, and some fire resistance. And difficult with a single stairwell when firemen are trying to get up to help any elderly or disabled people out.

There was an "expert" on the radio this morning saying that people do normally evacuate from buildings cooperatively and without much panic when it is the real thing, in contrast to the usual "disaster movie" representation.

[Andy Burns]

No doubt there are various types of sprinkler system, if the wet-pipe type then they "go off" individually as they get too hot, I don't know but I presume the dry-pipe type all go off together (or in zones) triggered by smoke/heat sensors?

How long can a sprinkler keep going for? How well do the systems cope with multiple fires at once, or does they system kind of assume once it's put a fire out it that's it, and it has a reasonable time to e.g. refill its tanks?

[Chris Hogg]

If they can't be prosecuted, then they should at least be named and shamed ('they' being whoever set the rules), for ignoring the mass of evidence already available, and numerous coroners' and other investigators' reports and recommendations.