No more mansize

[Tim Watts]

Do you not read the news?

1) Yes, it's happening for real.

2) Are Cycling News and the Guardian too "gutter press" for you?

[Tim Watts]

And if I seem bolshie in my other replies, it is because I am pushing back against people with penises trying to get into women's private spaces. Completely unacceptable.

If I wasn't having to push back against that, you would find me more sympathetic. I have known a trans woman (pre op but on the path) a couple of decades ago.

I liked her. But she wasn't causing problems for other women and demanding unreasonable things. So I had no issue whatsoever and was happy to go along.

[RJH]

Are you saying those cases are typical of something? They look decidedly edge case to me, and hardly 'the current state of play'.

No, not really.

[NY]

I still tend to think of gender as something you are born with, that everyone is polarised one way or the other, and that it's not something which a person can choose.

But that ignores the minority of people who are born with attributes of both genders, and for whom a clear-cut assignation of gender at birth isn't possible.

At a pinch I can accept that people want to change their gender. For most things in life, it doesn't make too much difference.

But sport is another matter. If gender affects size, strength, endurance and other such attributes that determine whether you will excel in a sport, then allowing someone who is born a man (with masculine advantages in size, strength etc) to compete in a female classification would seem to give them an unfair advantage. Either we remove male/female competitions (in which case men will have an unfair advantage) or else we require people who are born as men to compete as men even though their chosen gender is female.

I'm talking about people who are genetically men (and have even fathered children) but who feel uncomfortable in a male skin, as opposed to those who are genetically ambiguous.

My wife knew someone who was born a man and fathered a child, but who had just had a gender reassignment to female and went from being a man who fancied women to being a lesbian woman who fancied women.

[RJH]

Agreed - but I think you're talking about rapists now, and not trans people?

I think you'll find the vast majority of trans people are just trying to get on with their lives, without raping or causing distress. Like most of us.

[Tim Watts]

They have been permitted by the relevant authorities (Prisons and relevant sporting authority) so have been considered and passed. This is not a random chance concurrence.

It is not unreasonable to conclude, that having been given a green light in the sporting case, that we are going to see more of this.

If you read the cycling link, the 3rd place competitor seems unhappy with the situation.

I do not think it is fair for the exact reasons I gave earlier in the thread, being that men have an verifiable and significant advantage over women in games of strength and speed. Some may claim that hormone treatment may lessen the gap, but it seems highly unlikely to me that hormones can remove all of the natural advantage.

Good. I don't quote fake news. Even if I am made aware of something via "the gutter press" or twitter (this case), I will want to see some reports from sensible sources.

[Tim Watts]

The Oxford dictionary is quite clear that woman=human female, and females "can bear offspring or produce eggs" and I'm not going to play word games with people.

Yes - there are cases of genetic variances that deviate from the normal XX or XY. There is also gender dysphoria.

There should be help available for anyone suffering physical problems or misery related to gender perception or genetic problems. But that has to not include putting other people at a disadvantage.

Yes indeed. As I said, I knew a trans.

Completely agree. I would say I am surprised the sporting authority allowed it, but I'm not - we seem to be in a time where the authorities are indulging pretty much everyone who shouts.

[Tim Watts]

Did you not read the HMP New Hall link?

2nd and 3rd paragraph under the opening picture: On remand for multiple rapes and sexual offences against women.

I have no problem with trans who are just getting on with their lives.

I have a problem with people with penises who want to be in women's assigned spaces.

That's a very simple and clear definition of my position on the matter.

[NY]

I never did biology at school (I was made to do Latin instead) but from the little that I've picked up since, I understand that once someone reaches puberty, their hormones have immutably determined attributes like strength, stamina, lung capacity, etc. If someone subsequently has hormone treatment to aid their transition (eg from male to female), I don't see how their strength etc can change significantly. Perhaps I'm missing something - or, as you say, maybe the sporting authorities are being hoodwinked into allowing something in order to be seen to be gender-inclusive.

[Max Demian]

The "consultation" is to decide that. The tranny supporters want a minimum of fuss - no interviews with specialists, no cooling off period

- more or less a declaration by the individual concerned, and the payment of a fee.

(I don't get why they want their birth certificates to be amended - mine says *where* I was born - I don't expect to update that every time I move house - the birth certificate records how and where I was when I was *born*.)

[Max Demian]

I wish I could have done biology at school: that was regarded as an "arts" subject - easy enough for girls to do I suppose. And I wish I could have continued with Latin - much more useful than French - but I had to give that up when I moved from Lower Science to Upper Science.

[Max Demian]

It's just to placate women. People with longer legs have an unfair advantage in sports that involve running &c. Sport is all about unfair advantage.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

As I said. You should get out more.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Perhaps you might get your views more fixed in your mind before trying to read other's?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

You make it sound like this is the norm for transexuals. That many are simply cross dressers who do it to take advantage of the opposite sex.

It's rarely that. Most feel in themselves they are the wrong sex to the one they were born as. In other words, not cosmetic.

Eh? The majority of transexuals want a partner of the 'appropriate' sex to the one they end up with. Which is why they get lumped in under the LBGT banner.

Men who want to dress as a woman but are sexually attracted to women are merely cross dressers. And don't want their official gender changed.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Wonder if a completely straight woman would be more comfortable with a butch lesbian in that private space or a camp gay boy?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I'd say that definition extremely cruel to the many barren women?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Think what you really should have said is some of them. And I'd not be certain it is a majority.

[tabbypurr]

that bit I'd agree with. The requirement to consult a psych and seek their approval is taking the piss really.

NT

[tabbypurr]

some do some don't. There's all sorts out there.

NT