Garage doors

Measure them and visit an architectural ironmonger. Rare though they are these days, they can usually match anything you need.

I don't see a problem in principle, provided the conservation officer doesn't insist upon T&G, although I suspect 12mm ply will be a bit thin for the job. I would use at least 15mm ply and possibly thicker, depending upon the door size.

Wouildn't do that. 12mm is too thin and anyway routing grooves will expose the laminations in the ply. You also would need to use LLoyds approved marine ply. Exterior grade and standard marine ply wouldn't cut the mustard I.M.H.O.

You definitely need to keep the edges of plywood dry, 'cos it de-laminates if water gets in. By cutting grooves you'd effectively be creating a lot more "edges". Besides which, you'd be exposing the inner layers which are probably made of inferior wood compared with the outside layers.

On 07/05/2015 10:59, fred wrote: ...

I've used WPB ply for outdoor signs that have lasted for many years. The important bit, as with many woods, is to ensure that it is very well painted, particularly around the edges.

ose the laminations in the ply. You also would need to use LLoyds approved marine ply. Exterior grade and standard marine ply wouldn't cut the mustard I.M.H.O.

Our signwriter refuses to use exterior grade ply for his signs after numero us complaints about de-lamination. This despite all having full hardwood fr ames. And certainly I have seen evidence of this in shop signs around the c ountry.You have been exceptionally lucky. Its the voids that cause the prob lem. Moisture gets in and nature has her way. Painting will not prevent thi s as the culprit is internal. A friend built a small punt two years ago usi ng exterior grade ply, against all advice. He only had it in and out of the water a few times when the trouble started.

Not worth the risk

I'm sure there must be one around somewhere - it's just a matter of tracking them down. The pins are 22mm in diameter, so I'm guessing that's 7/8 in old money. My next door neighbour made his own from some field gate hinges. He's a retired mechanical engineer. so should be good at that sort of thing. I'm wondering whether a bottle of wine might induce him to repeat the exercise.....

My experience of the conservation officer is that providing the proposal looks OK ('replace existing doors or to a similar pattern if not fit for purpose') nothing gets checked unless someone whinges, so appearance from the street is everything. The originals are (IMO) unnecessarily effin' heavy.

Thicker is always feasible: These are pretty big but I was thinking the structural strength would be given by the L&B frames, with the ply acting as a skin that kept everything in place and covered it all. I was sort of thinking that an inner skin of celotex might be a good idea, maybe sandwiched with an inner ply layer.

Clearly a good covering of paint (and maybe something to seal it etc first) is essential, but I see that as happening before hanging, when it's easier to do a thorough job. These will be quite well sheltered, as they sit in a recess, but vapour will always be around of course.

Probably a mistake. It prevents you inspecting the edges and making sure they remain well sealed.

Perhaps I am just rather better at making sure the paint properly seals the entire surface and maintaining it that way.

It is only internal if the moisture gets in and paint can prevent that, but it needs to be properly maintained for that to happen.

Entirely different situation. A punt is subject to immersion in water and inevitably gets knocks and scrapes that make it impossible to seal the surface satisfactorily.

Similar in size to the pins on my double gate and I bought those off the shelf. However, if you can get them made it is probably even better.

....

I was going by the thickness of the planks on my gates, which are 15mm thick. A skin on each side of the frame would obviously be stronger, but I would still go for at least 15mm on the outside, if only for security. You might want to make the inner skin removable, so that you can occasionally inspect the frame for rot. IME, that is what usually fails first on gates.

That is what I've done with new side gates I have bought. It allows me to be sure that the bottom edge is very well sealed.

My limited experience is that the quality of marine ply isn't what it used to be either.

Andy

Too true. There was a lot of cheap Chinese ply on the market a while back. Like most things in life with ply you get what you pay for and there is nothing in this world someone can't make cheaper and worse.Caveat emptor.

xpose the laminations in the ply. You also would need to use LLoyds approve d marine ply. Exterior grade and standard marine ply wouldn't cut the musta rd I.M.H.O.

merous complaints about de-lamination. This despite all having full hardwoo d frames.

Nonsense. The man is a professional sign writer who we have been using for over 20 years. He knows well how to protect the edges of plywood and will t ell you that ply does bot take paint very well along the edges due to the v arying qualities of the veneers used and the intermediate layers of glue al l of which absorb paint at a different rate leading to those tell tale poor edges. Proper protection of the edges of ply requires a solid wood lipping .Besides if plywood does take in moisture along its edges it is along these edges it will de-laminate giving a nice frilly appearance, not in the cen tre of sheets. I've no idea how many signa you made, what size they were an d how they were mounted but I'll guarantee this man makes more in a week th an you make in a lifetime.

ntry.You have been exceptionally lucky.

er way. Painting will not prevent this as the culprit is internal.

No. The internal voids will already have moisture present sue to the varyin g moisture content of the veneers employed. After that varying atmospheric humidity can cause the problems.All the paint in the world will not avoid t his. One of the essential features of marine ply is the complete absence of these voids.

inst all advice. He only had it in and out of the water a few times when th e trouble started.

Well actually the punt was not immersed in water. It floated, and only for a few short periods of time as the kids soon got bored very quickly. After that it lay face down on timber supports on his patio and was subject to ra in only. When I saw it it still looked immaculate apart from the de-laminat ions. He finished it with Epifanes varnish, to the recommended procedure of 7 coats. Being a dinghy racer he is well familiar with finishing boats. He also used West System epoxy on all adjoining surfaces. Despite all this ef fort he still had problems.

Possibly your signs were small and did not contain any voids but the o.p. u sing it to make a garage door is a different cup of tea entirely.

Personally I prefer to take the view of the professionals in these matters. I wouldn't take the risk of using it as the o.p. suggested.

I have little doubt he does. I am also fairly sure he wouldn't make a profit if he spent as much time as I did on preparing and protecting the signs. You can get a good finish on the edges of ply, but it takes a lot of care, many coats of paint and a long time. That is the advantage of DIY over the professional - you don't need to justify the cost of taking your time over a job.

expose the laminations in the ply. You also would need to use LLoyds appro ved marine ply. Exterior grade and standard marine ply wouldn't cut the mus tard I.M.H.O.

numerous complaints about de-lamination. This despite all having full hardw ood frames.

for over 20 years. He knows well how to protect the edges of plywood and wi ll tell you that ply does bot take paint very well along the edges due to t he varying qualities of the veneers used and the intermediate layers of glu e all of which absorb paint at a different rate leading to those tell tale poor edges. Proper protection of the edges of ply requires a solid wood lip ping.Besides if plywood does take in moisture along its edges it is along t hese edges it will de-laminate giving a nice frilly appearance, not in the centre of sheets. I've no idea how many signa you made, what size they wer e and how they were mounted but I'll guarantee this man makes more in a wee k than you make in a lifetime....

More nonsense. You can't teach a man his job. The accepted method of protec ting the edge of plywood is with a hardwood edge. Lashing on paint is amate urish and only faffing around. And painting the edges would only stop mois ture entering along the edges where, if it does, the ply de-laminates along the edge. It will do nothing to stop voids within the ply from causing the characteristic bubbles and splits.

On 08/05/2015 09:56, fred wrote: ...

His job is to make a product that his customers want, at a price they are willing to pay, which has very little to do with what I was talking about.

I must tell that to the joiner who made a very serviceable pair of plywood doors for an outdoor meter cupboard on one of my factory units and didn't feel the need.

It was rather more scientific than simply lashing on paint and the bottom line is that it worked.

On the contrary his job is to produce satisfactory work. The fact that he f elt he couldn't do this with exterior grade ply says it all.

He is a pro, an expert if you like. Someone worth listening to. Someone lon g enough at the job to have loads of experience. Much more than an amateur who has made a few signs and now believes that HE is the expert. Get real

Yes that would be an excellent idea. Hopefully he will appreciate learning how to do it correctly.

It worked? Says you.

Scientific painting ? Wow. To be honest I'm intrigued to know how you appli ed numerous coats of paint to the edge of a plywood sign without it drippin g all over the face of the sign itself. Though I suppose you'll now tell us you painted the sign itself numerous times. What a lot of work when you co uld just have used the proper ply in the first place or used a waterproof f iller to seal the edge of the play instead of having to repaint it numerous time which I still doubt would seal it effectively anyway. And how did you fix this sign? Bracket? Screws ? Whatever, you must have ha d to drill holes, the achilles heel of any ply. Wait though. You glued it u p. Right ?

So how many signs did you actually do like this ? And how many weeks did it take?

My experience of wbp ply recently is that much of it is very poorly laminated, with lots of voids and it crinkles very rapidly if left out in the rain. I would not use it for doors unless it was a known well sourced marine ply product.

What it says is that he didn't think he could do it at an acceptable price using exterior grade ply.

Good for him. IME, it also means that he will have found the most economic way to do a job, but that does not mean it is the only way to do it.

So, your professional is right, but mine must be wrong if he did it another way?

I didn't have a choice of material; I worked with what I was given. If you really want to know the process, which I rather doubt as you have obviously already made your mind up, it was:

Shape the signs and drill any necessary fixing holes. Fill and smooth all edges, ensuring all corners are well rounded. Lay flat and apply one coat of wood preservative, working it well into the edges. When dry, turn over and apply second coat of preservative, again working it well into the edges. About a week later, apply one coat of primer, ensuring all edges were covered. When dry, turn over and repeat primer on second side, again covering the edges. When dry, apply first coat of undercoat to front and edges. When dry, turn over, apply undercoat to back and edges. Lightly sand Repeat last three steps for second layer of undercoat. Repeat for first top coat. Repeat for second top coat, without the sanding. Finally, paint the signs themselves.

As you may note, the edges had twice as many layers of paint as the faces.

Bolted through the previously drilled and painted holes to steel brackets on water barrel, which had also been painted with primer, two undercoats and two top coats. The tops of the barrel were sealed with specially made dipped PVC caps.

It was all the signs for the residential estate I lived on at the time, which is why I didn't have a choice of material - one of the other residents supplied it FOC, while another supplied the paint. It would have been three large signs at the entrance, plus road signs at one crossroad and three T-junctions, plus a few other ancillary signs, probably about 20 in all. I also did street name signs and waiting restriction signs in self-coloured GRP and painted road markings at every junction.

I think it was more like months. as I said before, the advantage of DIY is that you don't have to account for the time taken.

he felt he couldn't do this with exterior grade ply says it all.

You have a strange concept of business practices. Why on earth would he use an inferior product and risk upsetting his customer. He uses a more expens ive product in an effort to offer best service rather than risk his reputat ion.

long enough at the job to have loads of experience....

Again you grasp of business economics is very strange. The man uses the rig ht product for the job which is what his customers require. They depend on his experience to receive a satisfactory job

No one said his method was the only way to do it. In fact the majority of h is work is done with aluminium or acrylic sheet. The right product for the job not some make do and mend effort. Following your logic he should have u sed cardboard and clothed in it apoxy.

And did he use your fabulous finishing methods ?

If you found it satisfactory then thats o/k. It doesn't detract from the fa ct that the accepted method of finishing ply for exterior or even interior use is to using some type of edging. Yes its more expensive to do the job r ight but then perhaps your joiner knows his customer's primary requirements .

At the very minimum plywood requires some type of protection along its vuln erable edges. Be it lipping or epoxy filler it needs something.

ing how to do it correctly.

No. That's not what I said. He could do it with hardboard if you wished. Th ere's no right or wrong way. What there is is best accepted practice. There are loads of handymen out there happy to offer a shoddy finish at a cheap price and loads of people to whom price is the ultimate parameter.

pplied numerous coats of paint to the edge of a plywood sign without it dri pping all over the face of the sign itself. Though I suppose you'll now tel l us you painted the sign itself numerous times. What a lot of work when yo u could just have used the proper ply in the first place or used a waterpro of filler to seal the edge of the play instead of having to repaint it nume rous time which I still doubt would seal it effectively anyway.

Ahhh. Now we are filling the edges. So it isn't just a lashing on of paint.

And tell me di you not come across ANY voids in your cut edges ?

Doesn't make a blind bit of difference. When painting the edges of ply you are effectively painting end grain interspersed with resin glue. These laye rs react differently to atmospheric conditions causing them to move minutel y but enough to allow the ingress of water. The inevitable result is a brea k down of the painted surface and the characteristic parallel cracks that c an be observed later

e had to drill holes, the achilles heel of any ply.

Laugh, I nearly cried. I left the door open and you walked right in. I had a little bet that you would come back with some fairy tale about the fabulo us finish you used and the enormous quantity of signs you made,and you just couldn't resist, though the free materials was a nice touch.

The o.p's query was to the suitability of using 12mm ply for his new doors and grooving it to simulate t and g.

I offered the advice that he avoid exterior grade ply as IME it would not e ndure and also that cutting grooves in any ply was not a good idea.

You expressed no concern about cutting grooves in play and extolled the vir tues of exterior grade ply. Now it appears that you spent hours faffing abo ut with FREE paint and FREE ply. Funny I didn't see you pointing out these two very pertinent facts to the o.p.

All this concern you are now showing about the edges of the ply demonstrate s your ignorance of the real problem, voids within the ply itself which cau se the typical bubbles and cracks on the surface of the material exposed to the elements. Doesn't matter how much paint you apply. The problem is inte rnal and will always win through. The ancient Greeks used wooden wedges to crack out rocks by the simple expedient of hammering them in to cracks and then soaking them with water. The same principle applies to the voids in pl y. Because of the manufacturing method and the materials used moisture lade n air is trapped within the layers of veneer where there are voids. Thats w here the problems start. That's why best quality marine ply is guaranteed v oid free and why it is more expensive than wbp.

But have it your way. They're all out of step except my Johnny.

On 11/05/2015 09:04, fred wrote: ...

The basic principle of business is to give your customer what they want at a price they are willing to pay, while making the greatest profit from doing so. Materials are usually a lot cheaper than labour so, for a professional, using more expensive materials will often make more sense than taking extra time and effort to get a cheaper material to do the job. For the DIYer, the opposite may well be true.

...

That was your choice of phrase, not mine.

It was the best part of half a century ago and I don't recall the details, but I would have filled them if I had.

....

No 'nice touch'. Like any of my posts, the simple truth. I made a number of signs for a residential estate I lived on. I made them from WPB and they were still there, doing their job, when I moved away several years later.

...

I would take it as read that any DIYer would understand that making sure that something is very well painted will involve hours of faffing about. The fact that I didn't mention I was using free materials is totally irrelevant.

Essentially, this comes down to you getting your knickers in a twist because I dared to disagree with you.