More questions on home-made wooden garage doors

[Al 1953]

Some of you offered some helpful advice on my recent home-made garage door question. After reading some of the responses, and chewing it over, I decided to make the doors out of timber instead of WBP ply. I purchased tongue & grooved redwood floorboarding (22mm x 135mm) to be exact. I also got some 5" x 1" planed whitewood for the bracing. For the bracing' I'm thinking three equally-spaced horizontals with diagonals in-between. I am planning to have no vertical bracing at the edges, as the tongu+grooved timber is nearly an inch thick, and seems very rigid, If the doors seem too flexible after they are constructed, I can always add vertcals later.

Before I assemble the doors, I could do with some advice on joining and finishing. I've ourchased waterproof wood glue, thinking I should glue the grooves before tapping in the tongues, I assum this is correct?

To fix the bracing, will zink plated wood screws will do, and should also use waterproof glue?

As for finishing, I'd like the fnished doors to look as decent quality as possible, so they'll hopefully add value to the property (if that's possible using the relatively cheap softwood..). I imagne there are a number of options. As I like the look of wood, especially if it were stained to look more like hardwood or a redder form of redwood, would something like a coloured preservative be OK (such as tge Cuprinol stuff sold in B&Q for sheds and fences) , or is regular oil-based paint (and lots of it) going to the greatest longevity and the least need for repainting in years to come?

How about the door frame, which buts up to the concrete blockwork? Should I apply preservative before painting. Or, again, will a tinted preservative do?

Many thanks,

AL

[Steve Walker]

Engage Father Jack Mode....

YESH!

YESH!

YESH!

Good luck, Al - sounds like it will be a smart job.

[Steve Firth]

Hmm, I'm not sure about that. If using T&G I wouldn't glue the tongues because te wood is going to move and it's probably best if it's as free as possible to do so. If glue is used the wood may split.

I made a wooden garage door using similar materials a few years ago. It still looks good. It was nailed rather than glued.

[Cash]

No, that will cause problems with natural movement - which will be taken up by the T&G design of the board. Simply nail the boards to the fram using oval head rust-proof nails, punched in and filled.

A bit of over-kill using screws, nails will do, as the board will be nailed to the braces as well. and the downward pressure of the outside edge of the door will tighten everything up.

Also make sure that the braces are no 'flatter' than 45 degrees and point 'upwards' from the hanging side to the slamming side. If they are placed the other way around, they will be useless as a brace, and you may as well leave them out - as the door will drop anyway.

"YESH!" - is not quite true - as untanalised, cheap, fourth of fifth grade timber will not last more than around ten years (and rot will set in long before that).

Give the frame a chance and give it five coats of good quality paint (rather than 'tinted preservative) [1] - and also keep the frame about 20mm up off the floor to prevent the end grain (probably untreated anyway) from 'sucking up' rain water off the floor.

[1] Prepare the timber properly and give it the following: 1 - Coat of aluminium base primer (or similar) 2 - Coats of oil based undercoat 2 - coats of oil based gloss

Rubbing down lightly between each coat - and this 'should' delay the onset of early rot.

Cash

[Dave Liquorice]

Yipes, I hope you've thought about the weight and the hinges to support them...

My gut feeling is that won't work, or not work as well as diagonal across the corners of a box. I can't pin down why I feel it won't work, other than "no triangle". I could be wrong, the fact that you have 3/4" boards might be enough but they will slide past each other.

The horizontals really need to be mortised into the verticals and possibly the diagonal braces jointed in as well.

I wouldn't the boards will want move and if glued they can't. I wouldn't be surprised to see 1/4" variation across the width of each of those boards between the "wet" and "dry" states of the timber.

If you can get good quality zinc plated yes but screws vary immensely in the quality of the plating and in the steel. Brass or stainless might be a better choice. I don't use anything but brass, stainless or hot dipped clouts outside up here. Steel screws or nails just doen't last.

sheds and fences) ,

Be careful of shed/fence stuff, some is designed to work on rough sawn timber and doesn't adhere to planed at all well.

The full preservative, prime, undercoat, gloss system works very well. We have some Dulux Weathershield (Ithink) that has been on a south facing window frame for the best part of ten years. Where it was thin on the beading it's come away but on the solid timber of the frmaes it is still in good sound condition. Trouble is as bit's have failed it all needs taking right back and redoing...

Take a look at (some of) the Sikens range, these weather but you just lightly rub down and slap another coat on, not taking right back and starting again.

[Chris J Dixon]

Am I not the only person who can't help but notice braces which are not?

Chris

[stuart noble]

sheds and fences) ,

The weak point rot-wise will probably be the grooves between the boards on the lower part of the doors. Water finds its way into the t&g joints where it can't easily evaporate. There is *something* to be said for coating all the components in wood hardener before assembly, including the individual tongues and grooves, although the colour would need to be established beforehand. It effectively applies a thin film of hard plastic. I've done this successfully on window sills, but never tried it on anything bigger. The movement of the wood shouldn't be significant unless it cops the midday sun (whatever that is). Joinery grade redwood is normally supplied at 17% average moisture content and rarely dries beyond 15% outdoors, which equates to a shrinkage of around half a percent across the width. How quickly it responds to changes in the weather depends on the quality of the timber. IME dense, close-grained (expensive) stuff doesn't move about with every little change in the weather, but will tend to tune into the average ambient conditions over 6 months or so.

[dom]

It's not uncommon to see commercially-made ledged and braced doors subsequently fitted the wrong way round.

Some supply the brace loose (haven't seen this for a long time), some supply specific left and right hand doors, and more commonly now universal fitments with the upper and lower braces coming to an arrowhead point on the centre rail - so one of them has to be the right way round.

The braces should also be let slightly into the rails.

How wide are these garage doors?

Ledged and braced may tend to drop/lack rigidity - framed ledges and braced is much better, although quite a bit more work.

[Al 1953]

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Well, I bought four very hefty galvanised hinges costing £17 a pair. I'm more concerned about the strength of the framme and its attachment to the wall than anything. I've used 120mm hammer fixings ( 4 per vertical). I now wish I'd applied preservative to all faces before fixing, but too late now.

Now I understand bracing better, I'm thinking maybe have the braces parallel, like this:

jambs/verticals in that design either.

I've since read that priming the tongues and grooves prior to assembly is considered sensible. Thanks to you, and all others, for the other suggestions and advice.

Al

[Al 1953]

stuart noble wrote in news:jiEsn.336507$ [e-mail]:

I'm not familiar with the stuff. Is it significantly better bet than wood primer for this purpose?

Al

[Al 1953]

" [e-mail]" wrote in news:8000b39e-4a7d-47a6-bb10- [e-mail]:

Cutting those inset joints looks a bit fiddly for a carpentry novice like me. I bought some 'timber joining plates' (with spickes sticking out of one side, for hammering into the timber, accross a join. Probably not as good as letting inti the rails as you suggested.

Each door is 4ft wide, and 7ft tall.

More weight, too. I was hoping the thickness of the T&G boards will obviate the need for jambs.

Al

[Al 1953]

"Cash" wrote in news: [e-mail]:

I did think of that (raising it off the floor). I probably should have painted the frame on all faces before fixing to the wall too, but I didn't.

I was thinking of leaving the door and frame unpainted for the whole of this summer, and then painting it all, in September, after it has become well dried out and seasoned. Would you condone that idea? It's West-facing, by the way.

Al

[Jules Richardson]

Hmm, aren't those diagonal braces the wrong way round? Shouldn't they be flipped so that they transfer load along the brace's length to the hinge side of the door?

Agree with the 'riffle' though (is that a genuine term?) - it'll reduce the tendency for the diagonal brace to try and slide against the horizontals.

Regarding vertical braces, I'm not sure they do add much to the strength. They'll reduce the tendency to warp or for the door to twist, but you can probably do without them if you want given that you've got an inch of material already.

As for hinges, hard to tell how big is "big enough", although I think I'd use three per door. Like you say, mountings are more important. I think when I come to rebuild my garage doors I'll put metal plates on the reverse side of the doors and bolt the hinges right through the doors and the plates behind (ditto with the jambs).

cheers

Jules

[Dave Liquorice]

But it's a small, light, shed door.

I thought that as well, or fit the hinges to left as we see it not the right.

[Al 1953]

Jules Richardson wrote in news:hp0dd5$1n6$ [e-mail]:

Yes! I didn't notice that...

Glad to hear someone support this notion. If the finished door seems too twisty or flimsy, I can add vertical jambs

Luckily, I had a real life pair of wooden garage doors (on a gargae I have access to) to look at for guidance. They are obviously quite old, maybe 20 years, and are still working fine, and still fit well. They have two hinges per door, but they are hefty items, with square holes to take coach bolts.

Two hinges per door will hopefully be adequate, because I'm now planning on only two horizontals per door, with one diagonal brace per door (after reading some of the comments here). Each hinge will be bolted through a horizontal, of course.

Here's what I bought (though I got mine from Jewsons at a lower price):

One thing that I'm pondering about is the "axle housings" for want of a better term. They screw onto the outside face of the door frame, using 6 crews. That is obviously the Achilles heel, security-wise, unless the screws are made unscrewable somehow, after they are in place. To achieve this, I'm thinking filling the slots with epoxy or even butchering the slots with a drill to render the slots useless. Anyone got other methods to share?

Al

[stuart noble]

It's designed to soak into old, porous timber and effectively convert the fibres to plastic. On new wood it's more likely to sit on the surface, but my limited tests suggest it beats the hell out of anything else as a sealer. I've always painted over it so I can't comment on how it would respond to UV exposure in a transparent finish.

[dom]

If you're really bothered about that, once everything is mounted up and the doors fit etc, drill an extra hole through the hinge-pin plate and put a coach bolt right through to the inside of the building.

It's a bit overkill for ledged and braced timber doors anyway (unless they're massively constructed), as they don't have the structure to hold back even a moderately serious go at a forced entry.

[Al 1953]

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in news: [e-mail]:

I was thinking of having the hinge pins pointing in opposite directions, but actually my door closes into the fram and the top frame member is steel, so I'll keep them the same way. Yes, the lowlife could attack with grinder, but that would make noise which would be heard.

But yes, I am probably verging on overkill as there are other security measures in place around the property.

Al

[Al 1953]

" [e-mail]" wrote in news:5125136b-7182-4d97-b233- [e-mail]:

Good comments thanks. I like your bolt idea though so I'll probably do that..

Al

[Al 1953]

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in news: [e-mail]:

What about galvanised nails, for nailing the boards (galvanised ovals if there is such a thing)?

Al