Talk about pricing...

[Dean Hoffman]

I don't see how you can claim things were more energy efficient back when. Old houses had wooden siding, studs, then plaster. No insulation in the walls or above the ceilings. Compare the old tube tvs with the modern ones. It seemed like the tv repairman was always out at our farm changing tubes. The channel selector had something like 13 choices. Black and white, not color tv. Cars today get a lot better gas mileage. Somewhere in the mid teens/mile was common. Now it's in the upper 20s/mile. A car used to be on its way down after 100,000 miles or so. Now they're just well broken in. I just added some lights to my trike. The two added LEDs in front together draw 9 watts, yet outshine the high beam headlight that draws

55 watts. Look at the lighting on semis. The vast majority have LEDs now. It looks like the trucking companies are retrofitting them to the trailers. There's a website, Carpe Diem, written by Mark J. Perry. He's written a couple articles in the past comparing typical household items past and present. The hours we work to buy the modern versions is typically a lot less than in the past. One article is here: or There are more articles there on the subject. Go to the site and search there for hours worked for an appliance. Search is right above the guy's head.

Cut rest.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Last GM car I has was a 2001 Buick LeSabre. It was falling part in my driveway in just 5 years. Both rear door windows were held up with a wood stick after they would not go up any more, the trans had to be rebuilt, brake lines rusted out, the climate control was interesting. One side was hot, the other cold. By changing the setting you could reverse it. Some of the steering wheel controls did not work. I had the car two years but hat 38,000 miles so when the heated seat stopped working they wanted $672 to fix it. I wrote to Buick and they would give me a few bucks off to buy a new car.

Every GM car I bought new had to go back to the dealer within the first month for something needing adjustment or fixing. I gave the Buick away rather than try to sell it.

I'm on my fourth Hyundai. Two had to go back for a minor warranty issue at about 60k miles. If it was a GM car, the warranty would have already expired. The other two I had for 70,000 miles and never needed anything. Present car is a Genesis. Nice to drive, best car I ever had.

Going back we had a lot of GM cars in the family. I remember my father's '59 Chevy Impala going back to the dealer with a list of 20 items to take care of. The remains of someone's lunch at the factory was found under the back seat.

[trader_4]

It's easy, he's obviously a complete moron. Ed's example of an old window AC from the 60s was what started it. They were so heavy it took two people to lift. They cost $150 back then, which would be like what? $800 in today's dollars? And I'm sure they used 50% or 100% more electricity than today's units. Now you can get a unit for $100 to $150, it's half the weight, uses a fraction of the electricity. The only remaining issue is how long they last? They may not last as long, IDK, but if they only last half as long, it's still one hell of a better deal. And not many people want an appliance to last

20 or 30 years. If you paid twice as much for an window AC 25 years ago because it would last longer, are you better off? Now they have ones that use less electricity, have wireless remote controls, look better, are quieter, and cost less in constant dollars.

[Ed Pawlowski]

We used to take them to the Pep Boys store where they had a tube tester. I'd take six tubes and usually found one to be bad. TV repair was a good career back then.

Early 50's cars would often get rings and bearings at 50k miles. Spark plugs cleaned at 5k and replaced at 10k. Oil changes more frequent too.

[trader_4]

.   It seemed like

and white,  not

where in the mid

?  A car used to

Don;t forget points, condensers, and timing too. I have software for the BMW, can hook a PC up to it, and read out all kinds of diagnostic and performance data. The engine computer even identifies which cylinder is misfiring, based on the slight difference of crankshaft speed that's expected as a cylinder fires, I think that's been typical in new cars for quite awhile now.

The downside is that a lot of feature stuff that is added to these cars, which is nice while it's under warranty or the early years of the cars, must be real headaches later on for longer term owners. Features like headlights that change the aiming dynamically for example.

[Iggy]

replying to Dean Hoffman, Iggy wrote: Well, I've had 100-year old brick and stone houses with no insulation and they'd stay comfortable for the entire 1st day of a heat wave. My old 26" TV (no, not tube, geez) ran at 40-watts and until , maybe, 2-years ago (tops) did the new stuff drop below 80-watts and much more. I had an 80's Mustang and Subaru GL that got 20+ mpg's and only a few today meet or beat them. I got 300,000 miles out of each with almost no failures and a new car can just have computer problems for hundreds of dollars repeatedly.

Total nonsense article by an idiot that's selling ridiculous hype of LIES! Where's the "Miracle Electric Motor or Compressor"? Sorry but, any and all advances are in just a 10% (IF THAT) improvement. Scroll Compressor's aren't even in much of anything and they don't last. Yes, the insulation of refrigerators, ovens and dishwashers had some effect, but no it's nothing like that absurd article...according to my electric bill's actual usage.

And where's the longevity, to get back to my point. Longevity's nowhere to anything long. AND, today's crap has to be replaced in order to be cost effective. If you can't fix it yourself, you're shelling out hundreds on a piece of 2 to 5-year old crap that's going to break something else next month. Don't even get me started on the front load washer jokes.

[Iggy]

replying to trader_4, Iggy wrote: Assuming and Guessing, is not "sure". I've actually measured and also calculated (watts x amps) old vs. new. And, outside of thicker insulation items, there was no major improvement and even no improvement. In fact, Flat Panel TV's ran at

160 to 350-watts, much worse than even projection TV's. What about the first DECADE of Flat Panel TV's that would blow out in 6-months and no-one was honoring warranties?

"A fraction" of the electricity. I'm sorry, please tell the world about this CLEARLY unknown by ALL manufacturers re-invention of the Electric Motor or Compressor. No, Scroll Compressors aren't in much of anything, even yet, and they don't last = more short-lived garbage.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Just who are these "Masters" you speak of? I've lived my life that way I wanted to pretty much following the laws of the land, making my own happiness. You seem to be unhappily slaving for self imposed masters. What should be different?

[Wayne Boatwright]

On Sat 26 Aug 2017 07:44:03a, Iggy told us...

You are truly a cracked pot!!!

[trader_4]

Yes, I'm sure you've been documenting that since the 60s, ROFL And for the record, power is not just watts times amps, which doesn't reflect power factor, which unless it's a purely resistive load, matters. And it matters a lot for motors, switching power supplies, etc.

And, outside of thicker insulation

Pull up some specs for today's typical TVs idiot, instead of talking about projection TVs. And compare it size for size with a tube color TV from the 60s. A 27" TV today pulls a fraction of the electricty that honking hot tube set did. Even large screen TVs pull less.

What

What about the Hindenburg? Edsel?

Re-invent? No. But just like with cars that used to get 10 MPG and now get 30 MPG, there has been significant improvement. But feel free to believe whatever.

[Iggy]

replying to trader_4, Iggy wrote: Actually, it Volts x Amps, but you failed the test. No, I didn't test everything ever, I tested my old stuff against the new...referenced in my previous comments, which you read.

All the new Major Appliances do that may have a tiny efficiency improvement (1%) is that they make stuff cheaper or a put thermostatic kill switch in. Less mass to start moving and shuts itself completely down. At the price of quality and longevity. And we stupidly accept the forced obsolescence as "advancement".

Yep, there are more and more manufacturer's finally switching to more energy efficient LED's (17-years late), but they weren't there until this year or maybe just last year. And what happened to LED bulbs? They started out at

100,000-hours and then got chopped by 20,000 a year to now only be good for 10,000-hours. I have CFL's that are 20,000-hours from 1998, they have already beaten today's LED's by a long shot.

Sorry but, I couldn't let your fractional comment just go unanswered. That was more nuts than me. And please don't be so absurd to throw a singular Titanic into the mix when we're talking about hundreds of millions or a whole mountain range of landfill generated by the idiocy of the slave race known as humanity...the dumbest species on the planet.

[Iggy]

replying to Ed Pawlowski, Iggy wrote: That you have to ask speaks volumes. I'm happy and retired for a decade. You think you're not a slave being lead by the nose? We The People are We The Slaves. They've even admitted, numerous times, to experimenting on us. My and no-one else's family tree had a record of Cancer, Diabetes, Alzheimer's, Irritable Bowl, Dry Eye, Weepy Eye, Osteoporosis, Asthma, Allergies, etcetera.

You swap truly worthless paper and metal for every second of your life, you're taxed at every level and angle and you obey the million laws, but you're out on the street as soon as you stop and you lose everything in a heartbeat if you break a no-harm law.

Your Master's in Government don't recycle, don't pay taxes, don't go to jail, don't lose anything, steal your money, poison you, lie to you, record you and imposed money upon you. What business do you know of where the Employees give themselves everything and then deal the bosses a lifetime of nonsense? Nowhere! But, humanity accepted enslavement to then laughably call it freedom. I'll get into different next, if you want.

[trader_4]

What I meant was you can't just read amps and volts with a meter, multiply and compute power, unless it's a purely resistive load. Motors, switching power supplies, etc are not resistive loads.

No, I didn't test

Who should I believe? You or my lying eyes and the spec sheets? I suppose cars still get about the same MPG as they did 50 years ago too.

LCD TVs have been energy efficient for years. Compare a 27" LCD TV to a 27" color tube set from the 60s. And again, the example that started this was AC, there has been a huge improvement in AC efficiency. I changed out my 25 year old AC a few years back, my summer electric bills dropped nearly in half.

And what happened to LED bulbs? They started out at

And then you proceed to give another example that totally shoot your BS argument. Why are you using those CFLs instead of incandescents shich were available 50, 30 years ago? You said there were no improvements in energy efficiency.

I have to admit, you are an example of one incredibly stupid human.

[Wayne Boatwright]

On Sat 26 Aug 2017 11:55:47a, Oren told us...

LOL There's a poster on another group who is exactly the same way. He's always right and it's always the only way something can be done. :-)

[Iggy]

replying to trader_4, Iggy wrote: I just answered your line of thinking is all. Like, CFL's are just smaller FL tubes. Even the Circular FL are older than me and yes they were and are a great improvement. I'm not saying fire is king. My point is to free humanity from its daily enslavement. Why pay each other when we could just work for each others enjoyment of life and not have these pointless distractions, products and industries. Having just what's best and longest lasting, designed to be scalable with extremely minor pieces of improvement to simply bolt-on, screw-in and insert.

[Iggy]

replying to Wayne Boatwright, Iggy wrote: Sorry and I do understand. But, all I'm saying is stop, think and look at the world you're in. Asking, does it make sense to you? It doesn't to me. I've seen my share of dealing with people in jobs they hate. I've heard the endless complaints of how much this and that and the other sucks. I've watched German and Japanese world inspiring craftsmanship turn into worse than the China Hustle. And VERY much more than you may care to know. But, no-one needs to go where I've been to see the 1% abusing and using the rest of the world. Freedom from BS can give us so much more. Although, none want to even think about it. Well, I have.