That is true. While I agree with that, if I was really PO'd because
someone severely agitated me, I just pay pummel the hell out of him
for a few minutes. It is not the right thing to do, but humans often
react that way.
So easy to say what should be done, so difficult to maintain composure
when in a bad situation.
tell me,once someone starts pummelling you,HOW do you know they are going
to stop before you're dead or severely injured?
do you think people don't get "carried away" in the heat of the moment?
you have NO way of knowing.
at that point you are relying on THEIR "good intentions" toward you.
As I said,people HAVE died from a SINGLE punch to the head.
Who punched who to start it may never be known. And I'd say it
doesn't matter. If I get into an argument with you and strike you,
have a right to defend yourself. You can use reasonable force. But
if it gets to the point that I'm on my back, nose broken, head cut
you're on top, I'm yelling for help, do you think you have a right to
just continue pummeling me? That I can't use deadly force to end
a beating? Apparently you believe the rules of engagement only work
in one direction. Clearly if someone is getting beaten up severly
enough they have every right to use deadly force.
We have physical EVIDENCE that Zimmerman was punched,evidence and and
witness testimony that Trayvon was ON TOP of Zimmerman. We have a report
that Zimmerman was going back to his vehicle.
AFAIK,we have NO evidence or witness testimony of any physical contact on
I agree that we have no way of knowing how the fight started,but in that
case,the presumption of innocence is Zimmerman's. Innocent until PROVEN
you folks have to PROVE Z started or provoked a fight,nullifying his right
of self-defense. you can't.
that Z followed Trayvon is not -proof- of any provocation.
do you know the diference between a Taser and a stun gun?
the Taser works (usually) at a distance,the stun gun requires you be within
arms reach of an attacker. Both can be blocked by heavy clothing.
Letting an attacker GET to within arms reach is not a good idea.
you'd have a guy carry many different defensive weapons(actually,I suspect
you'd prefer people had no guns...),and then he's gotta choose,and that
takes time you may not have.
defense with a handgun has the least risk and best success for one's
self,which is what you the defender is concerned about,not the wellbeing of
if you don't want to get shot,don't attack a person. simple.
that proportionality concept is plain nonsense.
as I've said before,a SINGLE punch to the head has killed people before.
the way to stay unshot is to not try to punch me.
also,once an attacker begins beating on you,HOW do you know that he's going
to stop before you die,or before you lose an eye,or become brain-damaged?
you have NO way of knowing.
the way to stay unshot is to not try to punch me.
more likely,you may not get the chance to stab,particularly with a guy with
a long reach like a 6foot plus person has. you might hit a button or other
hard object that stops your blade. you more likely might just wound him and
REALLY anger him.
We will probably never know who "started it",or if there was "provocation"
that nullifies Mr.Z's self-defense claim,and that means Zimmerman goes
free,as he has the presumption of innocence.
Following is not "provocation",nor is asking a few questions.
One thing; gated communities,especially those that have neighborhood
watches,need to post signs stating that non-residents are subject to
surveillance,stop and question by official watch members.
I believe that gated communities are a sort of private property,as they are
not open to the general public,but a sort of private club,limiting a
visitors rights. And as a "private property",owners-residents have a right
to stop and ask what a "trespasser" is doing there. IANAL,however.
It's a shame that people have to live in gated communities,behind bars,to
have a little security.
BTW,there are some parts of Sanford where bars on windows and doors is
Did he presume GUILT? Of what? He told police the kid -looked
suspicious,and mentioned certain -behaviors- to back it up. and he asked
that THEY check him out.
But that has nothing to do with the self-defense done by Zimmerman.
even if Zimmerman profiled the kid,that does not meet the standard for
"provocation" that would negate a self-defense claim.
here's the applicable Florida statue that I came across on Wiki today;
776.04 Use of force by aggressor. -The justification described in the
preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1)Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission
of, a forcible felony; or
(2)Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a)Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or
she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she
has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the
use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the
(b)In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the
assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to
withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or
resumes the use of force.
It's been cited several times now by police that Zimmerman had
returned to his SUV when he was attacked. IOW,he WITHDREW from following
Trayvon.(no mention of any confrontation,either.)
the news report I read today said that Zimmerman was approached by Trayvon
after he got back to his SUV,and Z pulled out his phone to call police
again when Trayvon punched him,and he fell to the ground,where Trayvon
jumped on him and began pummelling him,and banging his head into the
sidewalk.(I wondedr if police found Z's blood and maybe hair in that area?)
Zimmerman's injuries support that according to police.
Baloney; any person can walk up to anyone and politely ask them questions
that are not provocative or "confrontational". Asking what a stranger is
doing in a gated community is not "provocative",unless you have a big chip
on your shoulder;aka attitude. For that mater,you don't know if the guy is
approaching to ask you directions.
Especially if you mention you're part of the neighborhood watch,which does
confer some legitimate reason to ask such questions about your being there.
(I wonder if they have some jacket,hat or other identifying clothing that
lets people know you're Neighborhood Watch?)
So I guess this depends on your definition of "provocation" sufficient to
Asking what you're doing in a gated neighborhood is not IMO,"provocative"
in that manner. To a -reasonable- person....
BTW,did you know Zimmerman and his wife was mentoring a black single mom's
two boys? Until he had to go into hiding,that is.also Zimmerman's black
frfiend is backing him up.
Does that sound like Z is a racist?
It's ironic that the family was bitching today about background checking
their dead son...that peoplre really don't know much about,and that they
use a younger,much nicer "innocent" picture than what he had on his
You keep harping on that,but you and I both know there's NO witnesses or
evidence for that,and in that light,Zimmerman doesn't get charged under
there's also a part of the Stand Your Ground law that provides immunity
from arrest or charges,provided there's no reasonable evidence of
provocation. (IOW,that would stand up in court)
there is none.
And it's becoming clearer and clearer that Trayvon was the initiator of
Oh,one other new bit of info;Trayvon's suspension was for pot in school.
they found some small bits of MJ in a plastic baggie in his effects.
One more thing his parents probably didn't know about their sweet innocent
This is just another Tawana Brawley or Duke U fiasco.
On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 05:28:01 -0700 (PDT), " firstname.lastname@example.org"
Yes, it is very murky. No doubt the kid was on tip. At that point,
no doubt that Z was fearful. Perhaps shooting was his only recourse.
What we don't know though, is why. Maybe the kid was the aggressor,
but maybe, just maybe, Z did something that we don't know about.
Maybe, if we knew, we'd say, yes, he should have the crap beat out of
Anyone that says this is a simple self defense case is not using facts
to make that decision. We still have a lot to hear about, to learn
about. We should really keep an open mind until the facts are in.
No one though, said that asking a question justifies punching. That
is one of those murky spots where we don't know what was said or done.
I can see two opposite scenarios leading to an altercation. Could
have been started by either party.
the Miami Herald ran an article yesterday about Tray having multiple
suspensions,and his being found with 12 pieces of women's jewelry and a
flat-blade screwdriver in his backpack,that the security officer described
as a "burglary tool". He claimed a "friend gave them to him to hold".
Maybe he was looking for houses to burgle when Zimmerman saw him "acting
Also,HOW does a 17 yr old get the money for a gold "grill"? maybe stealing
it DOES establish that Tray was a vandal(graffiti),burgler-thief,and an
illegal drug user. NOT the "innocent kid" he's being portrayed as.
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