Slightly OT: Reginal News TV transmissions in HD

Our regional BBC TV News programmes come from Plymouth, and are not in HD. This means that when watching the BBC News in HD, Channel 101, I have to switch over to BBC SD, Channel 1, to watch the local news. Is this a common experience around the country, i.e. are all regional news programmes only transmitted in SD, or is Plymouth in a minority? Is there a date set for upgrading BBC Plymouth to HD?
--

Chris

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 18/07/2018 20:11, Chris Hogg wrote:

London is the same. The BBC cannot afford to upgrade to HD as they are paying their celebrity preseters too much!
--
mailto : news admac myzen co uk

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 20:35:07 +0100, alan_m wrote:

not in

I
Is

minority?

If they wait much longer they can skip HD and go straight to UHD...
How ever I think the real reason(s) are rather more mundane and technical. As I understand it the HD distribution MUXs are assembled in London. So to insert a region into a MUX you need to send it to London and then send the assembled MUX back to just that region. Repeat for each region and sub region that opts out of network...
Cross posted to uk.tech.broadcast.
--
Cheers
Dave.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Or to summarise, the local news is almost certainly _shot_ in HD, but there aren't the distribution channels to _distribute_ it in HD.
AIUI (I don't have satellite) all the regional variations are available on satellite (to all regions, i. e. you can watch your local news even when you're on holiday in another region); I don't know whether in HD though.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I hate the guys that criticize the enterprise of other guys whose enterprise
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

What is more frustrating is that they don't even have the ability to insert an upscaled SD version of the programme into the HD broadcast - so if you are watching the national news in HD, you need to change over to SD to see the local news, and then maybe switch back to HD for the next programme.
I wonder whether it was simply cost that made BBC have a different network topology for HD than they do for SD.
ITV manage it OK. They evidently have a different topology for their HD, more akin to their SD one. They need to, in order to insert regional adverts for each transmitter, and no doubt use that same method for regional opt-outs.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 23:50:52 +0100, NY wrote:

Probably, you multiply the required HD distribution by the number of different opts there are, which is something between 12 and 18...
You can't simply strip out the network BBC One from the multiplex as it "passes through" and replace it with something else as the multiplex's are statisically produced. ie the bit rate of each channel changes dynamically partly goverened by what bit rate the other channels in the multiplex want.
--
Cheers
Dave.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Yes but if what you are replacing it with is a lower bit rate (SD rather than HD) then it doesn't matter. For the times of opt-outs, assume a fixed rate that has sufficient headroom without being greedy. Does *any* English (*) region/transmitter get local news on BBC One HD, or does everywhere get the same "please retune to SD" caption that I do?
ITV can do it: each of their transmitters has different adverts, so there must be different data streams being merged into PSB3, alongside BBC One, BBC Two, CH4 and Five, for each transmitter. So why can't BBC do it with regional news opt-outs?
Or does ITV HD have the same adverts for the whole of England (*), unlike ITV SD? I'll have to record both stations at advert time and have a look...
(*) I'm assuming that Wales, Scotland and NI have their own arrangements, in the same way as they do for BBC local news.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 20/07/2018 12:36, NY wrote:

Because that would require spending money on extra codecs etc to enable more split feeds for BBC 1 HD. They have done that for BBC 1 HD in Scotland, Wales and NI, (because they have far more opt out programmes, than the English regions). It's all down to cost/benefit. ITV have done it for some of their regions, but only where the cost of regional ads on HD make it financially viable.

See above
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Ah, so some ITV regions have common adverts for the HD feed, rather than ones which are unique to each region or even each main transmitter as for SD? I hadn't realised that.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 20/07/2018 13:08, NY wrote:

No, sorry, you misunderstand. Where there's an HD version of an SD ITV region, the ads are the same.
For instance ITV Central West HD, shows the same national and local ads as ITV Central West SD. However, in the South West of England, ITV SD is South West (obviously) but ITV HD is the Central version.
All ITV regions now start life as HD, and are downscaled for SD transmission, it's just that some are not transmitted in HD (yet)
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Sounds good. (As you say later, ITV manage it.)

I was about to say "sort of, for London": I've noticed that if I watch the BBC News channel (231) during Breakfast, I get the London local inserts. But then it occurred to me that 231 is SD - and I can't find "BBC News HD". _Is_ there a "BBC News HD" on FreeView? In my guide, every single prog. on channel 231 - including "Click", which I think is unique to BBC News, certainly as many times in the week as it's on - say "Also in HD" at the end of their description. []
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"If even one person" arguments allow the perfect to become the enemy of the
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

ch107
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Which is on multiplex COM7 or COM8 (I always forget which has BBC News HD and which has BBC Four HD) which only the main transmitters have. Many second-tier transmitters only have six (PSB1-3 and COM4-6) and all the Freeview-Lite repeaters only have PSB1-3. (Sorry, I can't think in terms of the corresponding, more esoteric names of multiplexes like SDN, D3&4 and Arquiva, which aren't a nice easy numerical sequence.)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 20/07/2018 13:44, NY wrote:

Only 30 of the 80 main transmitters
All 1154 carry three muxes
80 of those carry six muxes
30 of those carry eight muxes
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload


Yes, when I said "main" I meant the largest, big-name transmitters like Bilsdale, Emley Moor, Winter Hill, Oxford, Crystal Palace etc. Those would be part of the 30. When I said "second-tier" I meant the others in the 80 which tend to serve slightly smaller areas (eg Keighley, Scarborough). Other examples are available: I'm just using the ones near me or that I know of.
It's a shame that BBC weren't able to put BBC Four HD into PSB3 for all 1154 transmitters to broadcast. Lack of room, I presume.
In the longer term when/if all TV goes over to the more space-efficient DVB-T2, I wonder which channels will make it into the PSB muxes that all transmitters carry? As long as they get Yesterday, Drama and Talking Pictures I'll be happy :-) Of course it will mean that everyone will then need DVB-T2 (so-called HD) TVs and PVRs, so there's a bit of "selling" needed for that idea...
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 20/07/2018 14:20, NY wrote:

The choice of sites tend that way, but is still governed by frequency planning constraints. For instance relays such as Fenton and Fenham carry COM 7 and 8, but larger population coverage main stations such as Sudbury and Dover don't.

First step is to remove the simultaneous transmission of HD and SD channels !
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Is Dover's because of overspill to the French coast or because of interference with other UK transmitters?
I'd always thought that it was due only to cost/benefit. Those pesky UHF signals just won't stay put where they were intended and have a nasty habit of spilling all over a neighbouring transmitter's patch :-) Isn't the long-term intention to make COM7 and COM8 each work as a single-frequency network, so every transmitter would only interfere with other in-phase synchronised broadcasts of the same data, so there would only be static permanent nulls. If COM7 and COM8 survive beyond the time when they are all SFN, then maybe Sudbury and Dover will get them.

Which you can only do when some (large) proportion of the population has DVB-T2 equipment. And that will take time because people have "only just" been forced to buy a new TV and PVR (or at the very least, a set top box) to replace the old analogue equipment that ceased to work after DSO. It's not as if the decoder can be removed and replaced by a higher-spec one - and even if that was possible, the cost to the user would probably be as much as brand new equipment. My parents bought a new TV and PVR round about the time of DSO at Oxford, so not that long ago, and when I was investigating why they couldn't receive certain channels (which I thought was due to the over-700 MHz changes and a narrowband "grouped" aerial) I discovered that while the TV is DVB-T2 and can receive everything (*), the PVR is DVB-T only so can't record HD or some SD channels.
It will be a shame when DVB-T goes, because MPEG is much less processor-hungry to decode that H264, as I know if I try to spin through a recording of each on my PC: SD/MPEG can keep up no matter how quickly I spin through, whereas H264 (even "sub-SD" 544x576) starts to become very jerky at much above real time. (OK, solution to that is a faster PC!)
(*) Apart from one DVB-T mux which was very weak, and I bet that *is* due to it being out-of-band for their aerial.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
[]

Why only some of them SFN?
Has the SFN concept been proven? I would wonder if the nulls would drift (in position I mean) with conditions - temperature, humidity, possibly even pollution levels.
If it _has_ been found workable, why is it taking so long to spread? I can see concerns about aerial groupings and the like, but surely _some_ areas could have been combined by now.

Exactly. Though I think T1-only _boxes_ have mostly disappeared (from _new_ shelves anyway). Though I think some T1-only _TVs_ are still being pushed. (Perhaps time to remove the below-32" [was it?] concession.)

[] Such people are apparently of little concern to the planners (and even some posters here).
Of course, the problem is partly mitigated by the decline in the quality of the kit; these days, if you get 5 years out of something, you consider yourself lucky. So changes can come in after all.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"There are a great many people in the country today who, through no fault of
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
writes:

It has to be confined to multiplexes where there are no regional variations (opt-outs, adverts: ie exactly the same signal) between any two neighbouring transmitters, which taken to its logical conclusion means anywhere in the UK because there will always be overlaps.
That probably severely limits the choice of multiplexes that can use it - no channels with regional adverts.

I've wondered that too, about drifting nulls and maxima (though too *much* signal probably never did anyone much harm unless you overload the tuner!).
Are some of the DAB multiplexes (or whatever synonym they use for "multiplex") SFN - or am I imagining that?

I wonder how long some of the early DVB-T TVs and set top boxes with old analogue-only CRT TVs will remain in service. I used to have four or five STBs that I'd acquired (eg an old OnDigital one that probably couldn't handle a lot of modern DVB-T transmissions due to changes in parameters that OnD never anticipated). My old TV, a 28" CRT monster that took two people to lift, dating from 2000 when I bought a new house with a larger living room in which my little 14" TV would be too small, was analogue-only, as was my parents' TV and the one at their holiday cottage where we are currently living. All those have been replaced by "digital TVs" - though some are DVB-T only, even if they were advertised as HD ready... provide your own HD signal eg from a DVD player.
It's surprising how long it was after HD broadcasts began that Amazon began selling USB decoders for receiving and recording HD / DVB-T2 programmes. I tend to record everything to PC, which allows me to edit out commercials and continuity (all the spam!) and to store as much as I like and back it up. It also allows me to play back slow-moving dramas and documentaries at faster than real-time :-) It's only when SWMBO started talking about watching on the full-size TV that I investigated Plex server software and a Roku box connected to the TV.
If I felt really adventurous, there's probably a Raspberry Pi project in developing a player that can access the Windows shares directly without needing special server-streaming software on the PC and the corresponding software on the reader, which has always seemed a convoluted and inefficient way of doing it, requiring transcoding and all sorts of guff like that that really makes my PC groan (*). Keep it simple: SMB client and VLC player. Help! I'd have to dredge up my knowledge of the SMB protocol which I used to know like the back of my hand 20 years ago.
(*) I can always tell when my PC is struggling: when the processor usage gets high, the CPU fan ramps up into turbo mode and sounds like an old vacuum cleaner ;-)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

[]

True, in the endpoint of national SFNs. But it seems odd that _no_ SFNing has (AFAIK!) been set up yet for TV multiplexes.
I don't know what's on what multiplex these days (too much bother to keep up). Do any of the second-page channels - Dave, CBS Action, Yesterday, Quest, 5USA, etc. - actually take regional ad.s? I haven't _noticed_ any; I'd have hoped it ought not to be beyond the wit of man to sort a national multiplex or two that _would_ be suitable for SFNing, assuming it actually works. []

In the days of medium wave, I think the receivers struggled most when the signal was on the steepest part of the slope! Though I suspect UHF FDM would be very different from MF AM.

It was certainly talked about. Don't know though. Lower frequencies (mostly), so perhaps broader nulls. []

A change fairly early on - something like from 8QAM to 64QAM - killed the vast majority of the OnDigital boxes. (I believe there was some rumour that a few - with Motorola chips was it? - could survive.) They did _that_ change in stages, by only changing some of the multiplexes, so at first they (and other 8QAM-only or whatever it was boxes; the OnDigital ones weren't the only ones) could receive some channels but not others. (Then none.)

I think there must be quite a lot of those; I looked recently into T2 decoder boxes, and found a few models with only HDMI output. (E. g. "Manhattan" "brand" ones.) At first I asked myself what are they aimed at - surely anything that doesn't have a SCART socket will be HD anyway - but then I realised that no, some would be the "HD-ready" ones (especially the 720p ones). And for it to have been worth making T2 boxes with only HDMI output, there must be a certain number of them. (Having looked for T2 with SCART output - I know that's not HD, but I don't need HD but suspect the writing's on the wall for T1 - I've been surprised how many still do have a SCART output.) []

You remind me of the opposite: a young lady I knew (in Leeds) who was a member of some vintage TV organisation, but unlike most of the other members who'd bought or built dedicated converters to generate 405-line signals, she had - using Linux and some relatively early graphics card - cajoled that into generating such signals directly. []
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Warning. The following ad break may contain sofas. - seen on Dave, 2018-4-20
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.