On Tue, 17 May 2016 19:01:00 -0400, Stormin Mormon
Man up and come on out. I'd never kick a man while he's down, and the
only way I'd be able to kick that high is if you WERE down.
and in case you didn't catch the symbolism - White Fat is in contrast
to the black "stick figure" starving Africans.
Even the poorest, most government-put-on American trailer trash is a
millionaire compared to the average tribal african - because he has
HOPE. There is a CHANCE he and his kids can get ahead.
Not born into a world of Aids, chronic Malaria, Bilharzia and
starvation - and born of a malnourished mother. Not born with at least
4 strikes against you in a world where it's "three strikes and you
In a world where unless someone gives you a "leg up" you are down for
the count. Where there ARE no government service (that you cry about
costing you too much)
And all YOU can do is bitch and complain about YOUR Government.
You are one pittiful excuse for a human being. Man up and do
something to make the world a better place instead of just wasting
space and oxygen.
On 5/17/2016 10:58 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
You are one judgemental and ignorant person. Or,
maybe you're two persons. One of which is judge-
mental, and the other one is ignorant. You have
little or no knowledge of the ways I do make the
world a better place, some times many occasions
each day. As for now, I'll just leave you to be
judgemental and ignorant. I doubt there is much
hope that (even with descriptions and evidence)
you might be able see clearly.
On Tue, 17 May 2016 15:55:23 -0700, Taxed and Spent
OK.As a young single man 21 years of age - a licenced mechanic with
some teaching experience - I applied to CUSO (Canadian University
Service Overseas) - similar to the US Peace corp or the Brittish VSO -
a purely secular organization .
I was posted to the Kabwe Trades Training institute in Kabwe (Formerly
Broken Hill;) in the northern CopperBelt area of Zambia, but before I
arrived they re-posted me to the new Livindston Trades Training Center
in Livingston - right down within a few Km of the disputed borfer
between Zambia and the then Rhodesia (Now Zimbabwe) and also very
close to the warring Mozambique and Angola. A few weeks before I
arrived several tourists on the Rhodesian side, including 2 Canagian
girls who's home was less than 50 miles from mine, were killed by
Zambian soldiers shooting across the border below Victoria Falls.
I was to set up and teach the Agricultural Mechanics program - but
my shop was being used as a warehouse and there wa NO equipment.
My first job was to travel by lorry (a 15 ton Mercedes truck) on a
route through all the other trades training centers to pick up un-used
and surplus equipment for the shop. Lusaka, Luansha, Kabwe, Lukasha,
and a few others I've forgotten, from one end of the country to the
other, over roads ranging from quite presentable blacktop 2 lane, to
the roughest dirt roads you could imagine - hot and dusty and ROUGH.
When I returned to Lusaka after 2 weeks I headed for Livingston.
I was told I would get an allowance equivalent to what they would have
to pay a local with the same qualifications to do the job - and as a
Class A auto mechanic in Canada that was equivalent to the British
City and Guilds Engineer designation.
I had borrowed money from home to buy a vehicle - I had my eye on a
rebuilt R4 Renault that ended up not being available so I spent half
as much for a used Peugeot instead and drove with everything I owned
to Livingston - down the Great North Road. When I got there I put
together a list of additional equipment necessary to start the program
and sent it to Tech Ed headquarters - and waited for my first pay.,
and for further instructions.
I had my car wrecked within a few weeks of arriving and spent my time
getting it back together with no money while waiting for further
instructions. - and my first pay. I had arrived in country in July -
it was early November and I was still doing nothing - living off the
money I had NOT spent on the car.
Ends up they couldn;t figurenout what my classification was and I
fdinally ended up being paid as a fresh highschool graduate with no
experience - about 15Kw atcha a week plus a roof over my head. A
Kwatch then was equivalent to a SA Rand - vert close to a British
pound - about $1.65 Canadian. and a liter of regular (about 81 octane)
gas was a Kwatcha.
I still was not working so I put out some fealers. MCC (Menonite
Central Committee) the service branch of the Mennonite and Brethren
inChrist churches had an opening I could fill in southern Botswana so
I told Cuso that if they did not have work for me by Christmas I was
crossing over to Botswana where MCC would give me work.
I shortly got the word I would be starting to teach in the automotive
mechanics shop with a fresh intake of students - so I stayed.
Half my students were older than I was. One was an "old man" of 37.
Some were fresh out of the "bush", and all, unlike my highschool
students in Waterloo, were VERY eager to learn.
They started out with 3 strikes against them. Any intellectual
deficits they had were due to health issues - chronic Malaria and
Bilharzia, combined with chiuldhood malnutrition had had serious
results in some cases - but they worked their tails off and after 4
semesters I'd made respectable mechanics out of at least half the
The situation in Livinston at this time was quite severe. We were at
the end of the road, so supplies were sporadic and scarce. Tourism at
the Victoria Falls was next to non-existant. At night I often heard
gunfire across the border. There were reugees from Angola, Mozambique,
Namibia and even from Rhodesia. A few of my students were refugees.
The British had left the former Northern Rhodesia with a decent
infrastructure after independence about 10 years earlier, but they had
not trained administrators etc to take over - so a lot of things
didn't run too smoothly, Everyone was learning on the job - and they
had inherited the worst of British Colonial Buerocracy - yet compared
to the portugese colonies of Angola and Mozambique they had the world
by the tail.
Yes, there was always a low undercurrent of corruption - a few Kwatch
here or there could often get things done faster - but compared to
Zaire (Congo) it was nothing - and under the former freedom fighter
Kenneth Kaunda, the political situation was relatively stable.
Like everywhere else in the world there were the just plain lazy -
but they were outnumbered by those who had just given up hope, and
those who tried their best and couldn't get ahead.
The tribal and extended family structure contributed to some not
making too much effort to "get ahead" because if they had money and
the rest of the family didn't, the rest of the family was on their
doorstep, and pretty soon nobody had any money anymore.
There really was not a whole lot of incentive to try harder - but it
wasn't their faukt, when you got right down to it - and it wasn;t a
genetic lack of smarts.
One thing that DID make things worse, in my opinion, was the way "aid"
was applied. I found my being there working for next to nothing as a
teacher didn;t give any incentive for their own to get into teaching.
If they were good atb what they did, they could make good money in the
coppermines or the sugar plantation or private business - why should
they teach for a public servant'd pay if Msungu was stupid enough to
come over and do it for nothing. What I call the "welfare mentality"
- if it doesn't cost something it has no value.
The fault of the way "development" was done.
I left with the fear that "African Development" might just be a bigger
oxymoron than "Military Intelligence" but I also felt I had done
something of value - if only in the lives of my 17 students.
I returned home to Canada in 2015 several thousand dollars in debt
and 2 years behind my compatriots in earnings, pension contributions,
etc but it was 2 years well spent.
I say it was all good experience, although not all A good experience.
I could say a lot more - and although it's been 41 years since I came
home, sometimes it's like it was just yesterday.
A few years after I came home I met and married my fine wife - just
celebrated 35 years of marriahge last week.
We raised 2 daughters - one of whome inherited the "Africa Bug" and
has spent the last 12 years or so -how time flies - working both in
Africa and in Canada with World Vision and working on her Masters
degree in International Development. She has worked and lived in
South Africa, Rwanda and Burundi and is currently living a few miles
from Mom and Dad working as a project manager on several projects in
West Africa (Mali, Mauritania, Senegal etc ) as well as some overlap
into east Africa. The projects encompass health education, sustainable
food programs, nutrition, microfinance for developing small
In 2000 I spent a month in Burkina Faso - West Africa wotking with
friends who are linguists working with the Turka tribe, who were
returning to country after a sabatical - about 15 years or so into the
project. I went over to chjeck out and repair their vehicles - Toyota
Prad and a couple motorbikes, and set up the solar electric system in
their house in the village compound - about "a mile past where the
dirt track ends" in Fabedougo district. Part of the job was also
removinf a year's accumulation of "sub sahara" from on top of, in, ans
around everything they had lect in the house, repairinf screening etc,
and rebuilding the water storage system.
25 years after leaving the former British colonies of east/central
Africa - even afyer having travelled through a bit of the former
French Zaire - I was somewhat unprepared for French West Africa,
The French has not built the infrastructure the British had, and
didn't leave a lot behind, other than a history of slave trade - and
Burkina didn't have a primary industry like the copper mines - which
even with abysmal world copper prices, stillm provided some revenue
for Zambia. Burkina is one of the lowest income countries in the
world - right down there with Haiti, yet the people have a drive to
makes SOMETHING of themselves and their country.
Like Livingston of years ago, NOTHING is readilly available. To get a
few pieces of plumbing we required meant searching numerous little
shops -to find not what we were looking for, but something we could
Fixing vehicles meant making something from another vehicle fit, or
patching what you had,
This is not due to any inherent lack of intelligence of the people, or
a lack of drive - but I still almost dispare of EVER seeing a marked
improvement in the lot of the people.
Sometimes I don't know how my daughter does it - and with groups like
Boka Haram, ISIL, and other radical terrorist groups, it just gets
harder - and DON'T blame it on "religion"
It's a political power struggle, born in part out of hopelessness and
anger, maquerading as Religion.
And if the opportunity came up, I'd do it again..
I almost went back to Zambia in February to help fix the water system
at the Macha Hospital in Zambia - home of the Macha Malaria Institute
and Aids centers - world leading centers for research in Malaria and
HIV treatment out in the"bush" but arrangements could not be made on
Mabee some day, if health permits as age advances.
On 5/17/2016 6:10 PM, email@example.com wrote:
So, lets see if I get this right. An experienced
Africa visitor is flaming a guy who is doing his
best (with what he knows) to gently and accurately
describe a situation he's never seen? Some people
would use this as a gentle teaching moment. Chance
to bring some wisdom and undestanding. Perhaps even
encourage someone to help with the problem. But then,
there's Clare who chooses to kick an honest man in
On Tuesday, May 17, 2016 at 6:24:26 PM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
You call this "gentle"?
"...feed the stick figures so they can grow to
puberty and make more stick figures for us to
No one that is trying to "help" refers to those
being hurt as "stick figures" and then says "for
us to feed".
You've shown your bigotry many times in the past
and you are simply doing it again.
Clare: Don't even bother defending yourself
against this racist idiot. He's the worst kind.
He won't even admit what his words truly show.
On Tue, 17 May 2016 18:25:30 -0400, Stormin Mormon
What I believe about Mormons as a whole has nothing to do with THIS.
I have ni idea what makes you think it does.
Mormon, Catholic or Lutheran (or jewish,, muslim, SDA, hindu,nhillist
or buddist, or anything else) makes no difference to me -
I've known and worked with several Mormons over the years, and I
respected them for living their beliefs, even though I didn't agree
with them theologically.
Some of my best friends would describe themselves as "heathen". They
respect me for my beliefs - and none of them are fanatical atheists.
We have "theological" discussions on a fairly regular basis - and they
are never initiated by me. I get asked what I believe - sincere
questions - and we talk.
I'll never make Christians out of them - but God might.
One thing I CANNOT stand is a racist - of any colour - and
particularly one who is too ignorant? to know he is one.
On 5/17/2016 10:45 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
One thing I cannot stand is a person who assigns
a bunch of characteristics to others without
really knowing. Which is one definition of racist.
"You have this or that quality because you are
a member of a certain race." Well, you did much
the same to me. Assigning certain bunch of
characteristics to me. You've not met me in person,
nor seen how I treat people of different groups.
All you have is some text on the screen. So,
from a distance, you know more than I do about
my self. (You suggest that I'm ignorant, and
therefore you are knowledgable.) Pot, kettle,
On Wed, 18 May 2016 07:35:49 -0400, Stormin Mormon
Most members of different "races" have certain racial characteristics
in common. Black people with certain face and hair characteristics are
considered part of the black race. There's nothing wrong with those
classifications. It's how you act toward the race and for what
reasons you do so that matters IMO.
There is nothing wrong with inferring personal characteristics based
on what a person writes when expressing his opinion.
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 7:35:53 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
However, we have *read* how you treat different groups.
- Calling undernourished Africans "stick figures".
- Complaining that you ("us") have to feed their offspring.
- Making racist comments disguised as humor to the person of
color at Harbor Freight.
- Thinking that it is OK for someone to point out that the
roofers were Mexicans when it is only their work ethic that
- Continually adding "But were they Mexican?" to posts that
had nothing to do with with race.
"Whatever words we utter should be chosen with care for people will
hear them and be influenced by them for good or ill."
– Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha)
No, we have not met you in person, but we have read your words. Until
your words indicate otherwise, we have no option other than to assign
the label "racist". Words often define a person better than their actions.
A person can perform all manner of actions that outwardly appear to be
benevolent, but if in their head and heart they are looking down on the
people they are "helping", they are still racists.
1) pound Stormy over the head with a garbage
can full of historic selected items.
2) More kicks in the balls.
Are you part of the problem, or part of the
solution? Are you making the world a better
place and teaching people to do better?
On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 10:25:18 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Historic selected items = facts.
Do you have a problem with facts in general or only
when they refute your claims?
Why are you bringing your nut-sack into this discussion?
I'm not kicking any part of your anatomy nor do I plan to.
I merely respond to the words you post. First when you
post your racist comments and then when you deny your racism.
Everyday. Does this sound familiar:
"You've not met me in person, nor seen how I treat
people of different groups."
However, you have read how I push back when racists
comments are made. Base your opinion of me on that
because that is all you have. Compare my words to yours
and see which sound more like "part of the solution"
vs. "part of the problem".
"...feed the stick figures so they can grow to puberty and
make more stick figures for us to feed."
Please explain how that comment shows us that you are "making
the world a better place and teaching people to do better?"
Oh, wait...you have a tendency not to respond to specific
questions. Would you care to try just once to do that?
Nice goal post move. I never said that every minute
of every one of my days was making the world a better
place. Some times I just describe things.
I did, however, say I do plenty to make the world
a better place. I also promised not to detail the
list, and to keep you ignorant.
Clare's long treatise on his trip to Africa pretty
much agreed with what I wrote. Clare describes
corruption, medical problems, starvation, discouraged
people given up, and how the white foreigners are
the ones who seem to teach and get things done for the
starving stick figures.
On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 12:24:11 PM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
...And not once did Clare refer to any group of people as
"stick figures". Do you not realize that that term, along
with "and make more stick figures for us to feed" is what
prompted this discussion?
The mere fact that you continue to use that phrase and apparently
don't see how hurtful and harmful it is negates any attempt you
may try to show us how you "do plenty to make the world a better
If the words you choose are not what is really in your heart, then
stop using them and this vitriol will end. Once again, I'm giving
you the benefit of the doubt, but you just don't seem to get it.
You and Clare have been displaying behaviour
long before this thread. I don't for a second
believe that one small change of my wording
will end your or Clare's vitriol. Your attempts
to appear noble and gracious.... fall flat.
1) It would have been some thing else,
even if I'd chosen different words.
2) I mentioned doing plenty. However,
if you go back and read, I'm NOT
doing any thing to give examples or
"show us". I'm leaving you ignorant.
Which you're demonstrating nicely on
You are entirely welcome to continue
failing this thread as long as you
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