OT. EVs For Rural Drivers

[Dean Hoffman]

Out transportation secretary thinks it would be a good idea.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Assuming you are going to replace the car it may be sensible at some point. I don't see the payback to justify buying a car for only that reason.

We still have a way to go with charging stations and the grid but that is in the works.

[gfretwell]

Poor people can barely afford a 10 year old Ford Taurus with dents in it, I doubt they are buying a new EV even with the $12k rebate. Where will they charge it? Run a cord out of their 3d floor apartment? They could only use it every other day because a 120 charger is really slow. By rural, I suppose it depends on how rural they are and how rich they are. These people are so out of tough with reality it is hard to take anything they say seriously.

[danny burstein]

What's missing from all the stories (but then again, economic literacy is hard) is the likely reduction in gasline prices (or at least a moderating of the increases) that even small uptakes of EVs will lead to.

Short version (with numbers made up for illustration):

If gasoline demand goes down ten percent, then _all_ the prices will go down by 20 percent. So that owner of the 10 y/o Taurus will benefit when her neighbor switches to an EV.

Longer [a]: prices of items like gasoline tend to rise to the cost of the _most expensive_ supply.

So (again, numbers made up for illustration - the real situation is a hell of a lot more complicated...):

Let's say there are five suppliers, who would nromally charge $1.75, $2.00, $2.50, $3.50, and $5.00,

Each of them could provide 10 million gallons/day.

If the area needs 30 million, then the tanker trucks would go to the first three, the consumers would be paying $2.50, and yes, _all_ three of the suppliers (including the one who would be happy with $1.75) will get $2.50.

Now... if the area needs 50 million gallons, then all five suppliers would be tapped, and _all_ that fuel would be at $5/gallon. Yes, including the one who would be happy with $1.75.

So... reducing the deman from 50 million down to 40 million/day gets us to the $3.50 mark, and again, that would apply to all the fuel.

(Lots more complicated than this in the real world, of course, but the basic concept, namely that cutting down the peak helps _everyone_, is pretty solid).

[a] Over the much longer term, of course, inflationary pressures, harder to reach supplies, etc., will have their impact.

[micky]

I was more dubious until I realized the obvious place to put charging stations was at gas stations, which already exist and would be happy to have one if they can charge for using it. I wonder if anyone involved agrees with me.

[angelica...]

I'm sure someone does. At least one local gas station has an EV charging station.

Cindy Hamilton

[invalid unparseable]

Figure if it takes 10 times as long to fuel up on electric as it does gas, do gas stations have the space to put in all these chargers?

Also price of electricity at charging stations is about 3X what you pay at home and many people cannot charge at home.

[Dean Hoffman]

I know of one charging station at an I-80 truck stop. I've never seen anyone using it although I don't get by there often. It would make more sense to me to have chargers at rest areas where people can relax. How long will travelers tolerate "refueling" ? The secretary's premise is flawed. The speed limit on the rural roads in my area is 50. People drive pretty close to that usually. We have to slow down at intersections during growing season. We don't sit in traffic with the AC or heater on. The idea that we necessarily use more fuel than a city dweller is off. A farmer's or rancher's workplace is where he lives. No need to go to town most days. School buses pick up kids for school. The secretary did go to Harvard and was a Rhodes scholar. This is just another example why government should leave us alone for the most part.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Shell agrees as they are going to install many charging stations. For now it is about a half hour project but a patent has been applied for on a new cable that allows charging in five minutes. IMO, that will be a major factor to make EVs more practical. especially on a long trip.

[Ed Pawlowski]

See my reply to micky. Looks like the future is five minutes. Six or eight days a year I do an 800 mile day followed by a 400 mile day. EV would make that a horror show. This cable makes it no different than gas.

Won't happen overnight but the future will be much different with new batteries with no lithium or cobalt too.

[Scott Lurndal]

Who? Dean or Not-so-bright bart.

Here is the text of the secretary's comments:

[angelica...]

There is no "one size fits all" solution. Some people will install charging stations at home (that's what I'd do). Some people will charge at gas stations. (The one I saw had a restaurant in the same parking lot, with more restaurants across the street.)

Apparently, that one is just the tip of the iceberg:

Cindy Hamilton

[invalid unparseable]

Clipped this from Edmunds:

"The Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment: $200-$1,000+

Plug-in vehicles today typically come with the ability to charge at home on standard household current, 120 volts, which is called Level 1 charging. They also can charge on faster 240-volt circuits, called Level

2 charging.

If the vehicle has a small battery, under 10 kWh, you can often make do with the Level 1 charging system that comes with the vehicle. For plug-in cars with larger batteries, Level 2 is your best bet for overnight charging and quick top-ups.

Most automakers with plug-in vehicles in their lineups have a preferred charger provider, but there are dozens of companies selling EVSEs. A search online will help you find the features, power output and pricing that best suit your need. Just search for "EVSE" or "EV home chargers." Prices for quality Level 2 home systems can range from just under $200 to more than $1,000 before installation. Cost of Installation: $800-$1,300

Installation costs for EVSEs vary by region, depending on such factors as local labor rates, materials used, and government permit costs and requirements.

The biggest variable is permit costs, said Ken Sapp, general manager of Qmerit's Energy and EV Solutions unit. The Southern California company specializes in connecting homeowners with qualified EVSE installers throughout the U.S.

Nationally, average costs for a home EVSE installation with a short and uncomplicated 10-foot wiring, which runs from the electrical service box to the charging station, range from $800 to $1,300, Sapp said.

The costliest region is the Western U.S., where installation can run from $950 to $1,300. It's least expensive in the Central U.S. states, at $800 to $1,100. Costs in the Southeast states can range from $850 to $1,150, while Northeast costs run from $900 to $1,200."

My brother in law spent $3,000 to upgrade his home's electrical system just to recharge his hybrid.

Also read that about 2/3rds of us live in single family homes and can do this.

Only charging stations I have seen here in DE were in hospital parking garages where it would be easy to install with existing parking places.

[Ed Pawlowski]

That all sounds good if you live in a home where you park in your own driveway. I lived in Philadelphia and some of the old neighborhoods you would be lucky to find a spot on your own street.

[gfretwell]

I imagine the mini mart places assume you will come in and buy something while you are waiting

[Ralph Mowery]

A lot of them want you to come in and buy something while getting gas. They often make more money that way and the gas is just a drawing card to get you there.

[invalid unparseable]

The 2/3rds living in single family does not address this and I do not know if that includes condos that might be like apartments with parking lots.

I myself have an attached two car garage but would not want to charge a car in the garage after hearing some EV's have caught fire in charging. These battery fires are so bad they would burn down a house like mine.

[angelica...]

I probably could get the installation done for the retail price of parts. Permit would be optional.

We're already at 200 A. Husband might have to refrain from welding while the car is charging. Then again, he doesn't do much nighttime welding.

Cindy Hamilton

[Ed Pawlowski]

A few miles from me in two directions apartment complexes are going up. I don't see any provisions for EVs at all. I would think out of 200 apts. there will be a couple of EVs. I guess you can just run an extension cord from the second floor window .

[Ralph Mowery]

Surprises me that the building codes do not require a charging port for all new construction at places a car may be used, or atleast in homes and apartments where many will have cars. One port for each parking space.

Maybe just alot 20 to 50 percent of apartments to electric car owners and a port for that many.