Not Enough Outlets for EVs

[Dean Hoffman]

This article says roughly 1/3 of the U.S. population lives in apartments or condos.

[danny burstein]

So, well, do you have a point? Let's say the US demand for gasoline drops, oh, five percent each year for the next five years courtesy of EV switchover, leading to a total switch of 25 percent.

Umm, don't ou think that would have a BIG impact on pricing?

[Ed Pawlowski]

There are a couple of apartment complexes going up a couple of miles from me. I'd think having chargers available would be a good selling point. IMO, stupid for a builder not to put in a few.

Living in a lot of big cities they have similar problems. Row houses, narrow streets you can't have them.

Once there is a proliferation of Level 3 chargers, it won't be an issue.

I just looked and around me there are three locations and a total of 17 chargers in 7 miles. A level 3 can fill from empty in 30 minutes and add about 20 miles a minute.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Shell Oil is installing a lot of chargers. They see the future.

Did you see what I posted this morning about shortages? Out of Stock:Supply chain Crisis Episode 3 was about fuel pricing.

[micky]

That's why I've started my new business, importing extension cords to the US. 100, 300, 500 foot cords, so even if you live on the 40th story, you can put an extension cord out your window. These are from Greece, the premier maker of extension cords.

But so far, I've only contracted for 3000 cords, totalling 90,000 feet. I could do more -- I can easily sell 500,000 feet of cords -- if I had investors. I accept Zelle and Paypal. We can sign the contracts later.

[micky]

BTW, why does everyone say this this way? What is so complex about an apartment?

I think in Baltimore there are a lot more. The first year I lived in my townhouse, my car battery was dead. I'm in the corner and didn't have a long enough cord, so I plugged into the guy in the next section, who was closest to the car. He was not home, and he was annoyed when he got home. What does it cost to charge a battery with a 5-amp charger. Maybe 5 cents? Maybe he thought it was more. I don't think he ever liked me after that.

That's why I'm importaing Super-good grade-A maximo Greek extension cords, the very best kind.

[Scott Lurndal]

And how many of those 1/3 don't have a car at all? Quite common in the larger cities with good public transportation systems.

[Marilyn Manson]

I know a few people that own Airbnb's. It's getting to be a trend to install chargers so that you can add that to your list of amenities. Pre-booking inquiries asking if EV charging is available are becoming more common.

Define "proliferation". Unless there are multitudes of curbside chargers, like parking meters, it'll still be an issue. A smaller issue, sure, but still an issue.

Don't take that as me being against EV's. I live in a house with a driveway, so I wouldn't have much of a problem. However, I grew up in a row house in NYC, across the street from a major college. Parking was always a problem. Sometimes we had to drive around for 30+ minutes trying to find a spot within 3 or 4 blocks of our house. Now toss in trying to find a *charging* spot, while running low on power. That's what I call an "issue".

And in places like NYC (just as an example) there is no "open space" to put in charging lots.

Time for a not-so-funny riddle: What's 8' wide, 10' long and costs $1000 per month? A parking spot in Manhattan.

[Marilyn Manson]

Like NYC?

[trader_4]

New Target is going in here. They have a section of charging spots, located farthest away from the entrance. Looks like it could be 15 or more, next time I'm over there I'll take a closer look.

[Marilyn Manson]

"Over there" - that's my whole point.

Does Ed's "proliferation of Level 3 chargers" mean parking lots at shopping centers? If so, I don't consider that as solving the issue for those that live in row houses or on narrow streets - or more encompassing: those that can't charge at home.

As I said, I grew up in NYC. If I still lived there and my only option for charging was going to a shopping plaza hoping to find an open charging spot, that would certainly be an issue for me.

[Jim Joyce]

If it was me, the nice thing about catching you after the fact is that I can charge you whatever I want. Say, $25 for electricity and $100 for the theft. Or double that if I'm extra annoyed by the thievery. We can skip all of that, if you like, and I can just file a police report.

If you're using your own power, I guess it costs whatever a suitable extension cord costs, plus the actual electricity. If you decide to steal someone else's power, I would think it costs much, much, more.

You think? What else, of his, might you help yourself to, without asking permission?

[Scott Lurndal]

Perhaps if you lived there, you wouldn't need to own a vehicle at all; renting if you need to drive to jersey (or taking PATH and renting in Newark).

In any case, if there is a need for EV charging in Manhatten, someone will come up with a solution.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Let's say getting close to gas pumps. You don't have to charge every night but it will take longer than a tank of gas. That is why I said level 3. Ten minutes can give you 200 miles.

I lived in Philadelphia. At my last house no problem but I lived in my grandmother's house for a few years. Most nights I could find a spot within a block but still no place for chargers.

Now toss in trying to find

Today, yes. once they are in every gas station, 7-11, it won't be any different than buying gas.

How do they fill up with gas? Chargers will be in the same places. Certainly won't be solved overnight but it is in the works. Many years ago it was quite the adventure to take a long trip in a gas car too.

There are about 110,000 charging ports in the US. Back in the 1920s there were 15,000 gas stations. Now over 150,000 Supply and demand at work.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Right, those living on narrow streets have a tanker come and fill the gas tank for them. Or they have a home gas pump.

True that an EV does take a bit longer but you can go to a charger just like you go to a gas station. Figure 15 minutes or so.

Sure, some people CAN charge at home but the range is about the same as an ICE so once a week or so you stop and charge. If you can do it while shopping or dining, even better.

[micky]

When I lived in Brooklyn, I had a simlar problem, of course. Sometimes I'd drive around in the morning looking for a place without street cleaning that day between 11 and 2. One time when I realized I was going to be late to work, I could feel my stomach and intestines turning into a knot. I found a space and got to work a little late, but 3 days later, the knot was still there and I went to a doctor. He wanted to prescribe a combination anti-spasmodic/tranquilizer, but I asked for just the plain anti-spasmodic. I said I was tranquil enough (3 days later.) It worked, at least I don't have the problem 40 years later.

BTW, at work in NY, they just assumed the train was slow and at least if you weren't dealing with customers, ignored it if you came in late. I always made up the time but they never checked. (They didn't keep track that I was only 4 stops from work.)

That's what my mother told my brother, but way back in 1965, there were a million cars registered in NYCity's 5 boros. He was in Brooklyn for a year and then NYC for 3. I guess he paid for a garage, even though residents only made $4000/4500, then 5000 a year then. We folks from Indiana can't live without a car.

That sounds like a perpetual motion machine!!

[Sam E]

[snip]

An apartment isn't complex. The "complex" part is multiple buildings.

[snip]

[Marilyn Manson]

All else being equal, it doesn't take me 10 minutes to get 200 miles worth of gas once the fuel is flowing into my vehicle. I can get 400+ in less than that. Longer "charge times" mean longer "wait times" that just keep piling up.

And how will they be in "every gas station"? Will they replace the pumps? You live in Philly, so you must be familiar with stations that are so small you can't get in or out until somebody else is done. You know, the 2 pump kind with barely room to fit the cars between the pumps and the building and the pumps and the sidewalk. Where will the charging stations go?

IOW...don't exaggerate. It makes the argument weaker when it's easy to poke holes in it.

As I've said, I'm not against EV's but I also know that we need to deal with facts.

See above.

I know. I remind people of that all the time when they start ranting about how it will never work. Still, charging an EV and getting gas are not exactly the same thing. You can't just bolt on the charging infrastructure to every existing station.

[Marilyn Manson]

Sarcasm always raises the quality of a discussion. Thank you for that.

Addressed in my other response.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Why not? Amazing how people can spot the negatives and never look at the solution.

Unlike a gas station that needs tanks, charging stations can be located in other places. One of my favorite restaurants has one so I can have lunch and come out to a full charged car. Trader mentioned Target. I can shop and come out to a full charged car.

Yes, it does take longer that pumping gas. It would be good for business at the coffee shop to have one for customer use too.

I lived in Philly for 35 years. Yes some stations are small, others are just a spacious and anywhere in the world and could fit a charger or two.

If I said I have a pound of solid gold here and all you have to do is pick it up, some would complain they have to pay a bridge toll to come get it so would not bother.