Not Enough Outlets for EVs

[Marilyn Manson]

Seriously? Like Jersey is the only place I might want to go? And renting a car whenever I did need one? Not only expensive in terms of dollars but also an extreme waste of time.

NYC isn't just Manhattan. I lived in Queens. My family always had cars - multiple cars.

The subway (or even buses) aren't always just a few blocks away and they surely don't always go where you want to go. From where I lived getting to the PATH trains would be a 1/2 mile walk, a bus to the subway and IIRC 2 - 3 subway transfers depending on the time of day. And time of day when I would need 3 transfers is not the time of day I would want to be spending extra time in subway stations.

Subways and busses don't go the scenic spots upstate or out on Long Island. I can take a bus - on their schedule - and have access to the most crowded of all the beaches at Jones Beach or I can take my car choose any of the beaches in the 6 mile stretch, coming and going as I please.

I like to drive. That is the #1 reason I did not take a single interview for jobs near NYC when I graduated from college. I had no idea where I would end up, but I knew it wasn't going to be in a big city where I couldn't park or drive at or above the speed limit. My degree was my ticket out.

[Marilyn Manson]

Good grief. It's not "spotting negatives" when I point out an actual issue with what you say. Down below you seem to agree with my point that chargers won't be in "every gas station" and also that it will take longer to charge.

Do you expect me to simply jump on board and agree with everything you say -"once they are in every gas station, 7-11, it won't be any different than buying gas.", etc.? As I said before, exaggeration is not how anyone is going to win over someone who truly believes that EV's will never work. And as I've said before *That's not me*. I believe that they can be a viable alternative for some people and a huge help with our growing environmental issues. However, I'm not going to parrot your "happy, happy, everything will fine, just you wait" exaggerations.

Bring it down a notch and you'll have a much better chance of bringing people over to your side.

I never argued with that. Great idea. More places should have them. What I said was: "If I still lived there and my only option for charging was going to a shopping plaza hoping to find an open charging spot, that would certainly be an issue for me."

So do you agree that your "every gas station, 7-11" prediction contains just a bit of fluff? That was, and still is, my point. Next time try "Once they are more readily available" and you won't hear a peep out of me.

...and that would be a stupid decision. However, if you added that it would cost me absolutely nothing to come and get it, I would point out that that is not exactly true. However, I would pay the toll (and gas/charge) to retrieve my bounty. Do you see the difference?

[Ed Pawlowski]

I don't have a side. I just see EV is coming in the future and the shortcoming can be overcome.

We'll see what happens. Shell ig putting them in some stations. They see there is a market for the juice to be sold and want to get in on it. How is the 7=11 prediction fluff?

I'd not say if if it was not happening.

[Thomas]

Standardize the batteries and simply pull up to a station and swap for a charged one. Not possible? What about your gas grill tank? Choice to swap or refill. That can happen.

[Ed Pawlowski]

It is happening but so far limited. Batteries will have to be standardized.

Starts at 7 minutes to see the swap

[Marilyn Manson]

Hmm...that's called a "side". You've chosen the side that feels the existing shortcomings can be overcome. You can't deny that there are those don't think that will ever happen.

If you were in a room and somebody pointed while saying "EV proponents over there, EV nay-sayers over there" which *side* of the room would you end up on?

Shell isn't the only one. Yes, it's happening. But will we ever reach your *every* gas station and 7-11 prediction? I lean heavily towards doubting that and that is what I have been saying all along.

Please don't snip and choose to defend your points. Let's see what you said, in it's original form:

"once they are in every gas station, 7-11, it won't be any different than buying gas." The word "every" applies to both gas stations and 7-11's.

Rough numbers, there are over 10K 7-11's in the US and CA. After this rollout, they will have chargers at 250. it's a start.

What's not happening is a rollout to *every* 7-11 (at least not yet) and I stand by my "doubts" that there will ever be a charger at *every* 7-11. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

In the meantime, I won't be using the "every" word when I talk up the coming infrastructure. More readily available, conveniently located, standardization, etc. No exaggerated concepts that immediately make people stop listening or cause push back.

That's what I mean by "take it down a notch".

[T]

1+

[Dean Hoffman]

I live in a rural area and had no idea so many people are houseless. Small towns don't have apartments as a general rule. There aren't many people of working age who don't have access to a personal vehicle. A farmer could have access to several.

[trader_4]

It's still going to be very different. Gasoline has an extremely high energy density. A gas station can store 30K gallons of gas and put it into

2000 cars in a day. No way they are going to charge anywhere near 2000 cars in a day.

Yes, but in 5 minutes you can fully charge a car with gas, not so with electric. Some have proposed battery swaps, but go figure the storage needed to hold the batteries for 2000 cars and what that facility would have to look like.

[trader_4]

If it's a Tesla supercharger you could. They can give you 200 miles in

15 minutes. I doubt the ones at Target are those though, I'll check when I'm over there. But even if they are, this quickly leads to another problem, those are in the 100KW range. That's twice the total capacity of a typical new home. And the typical home never gets anywhere near that. So you're going to need a grid that can support that kind of power. Start charging dozens of those in a lot and it adds up quick.

[trader_4]

To have the equivalent energy refueling, it will have to be a hell of a lot bigger than a typical gas station. And there you can put 30K gallons of gas, enough for 2,000 cars, underground. Where are you going to put all the batteries and what will that cost compared to a gas station?

[rbowman]

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7236623,-73.6919494,3a,75y,111.58h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9VacPu6hqObdc5wsXYymcA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 Plenty of room for chargers but google must have done the street view when everybody was at the beach.

[Ed Pawlowski]

If you are going shopping you probably don't need a 15 minute fill so Level 2 makes sense. 30 to 60 is probably good.

Yes, the grid does need updating but. . . We are building factories, Amazon warehouses and the like so running wires for a few chargers is not a big deal.

The grid and power companies are an interesting situation. In my area, housing is increasing so we need more capacity, we want clean energy, we want better reliability.

How do we pay for that? Oh, we don't want to pay more. Consumers always fight rate increases even if it helps them.

[rbowman]

I grew up in a town of about 2000 people. Both my family and the neighbors rented the upstairs flat and we certainly weren't the only ones. They're there but they aren't obvious like an apartment complex.

[Ed Pawlowski]

How many do you need? You don't have to store 2000 batteries. The grid had enough power for millions of cars. A Google search says some stations see 1100 cars a day.

Lets break this down. How many EV cars will it serve per day in 5 years, 10 years, 15 years? It is not happening overnight.

We can charge a battery in 30 minutes. How many customers per hour at various times. One station I use often has 0 cars late at night but could have 8 at peak.

Will present gas stations ever serve EVs the number we see of ICE today? Other options exist. Home chargers, Target stores, restaurants, rest stops, etc. Compared to putting in a gas station, a charging station is pretty simple.

[Jim Joyce]

Prove it. :-)

[Ed Pawlowski]

No idea . I do know the battery of today will not be the battery of tomorrow. There are a couple of better ones coming along. Lithium is a problem and will be eliminated.

[micky]

Oh, not quite I see. Just wireless power transmission.

I predicted that when I was in the 8th grade, in 1960. I had in mind within the home, for cordless, batteryless appliances, that got their power from something in the walls. I thought 30 years would be enough. I had just about concluded that I was wrong.

When cordless charging of cell phones came out, I didn't count that as a fulfillment, because they are so small, use so little current, have to be so close to the charger. This otoh, though it's outside, would if implemented be a fulfillment of my prediction, 62 years later.

[Ed Pawlowski]

A road is being built in Sweden to do the charging. Many benefits if it becomes practical.

[Cindy Hamilton]

80% of the population lives in urban areas.

Ann Arbor, MI, is aiming for carbon-neutral by 2030. That will involve a lot of people relying on public transit, and switching from gas heat to electric. And, of course, to electric vehicles.

One idea is to have everybody in town live within a 20-minute walk of some sort of restaurants and shopping.

Ah, he we go. The "plan":

It's not a huge metropolis. But 54% of its residents live in rentals (some of which are converted houses in the student ghetto).

I live just outside the city. Housing prices are too high inside the city limits.