On Friday, April 4, 2014 11:53:28 AM UTC-4, email@example.com wrote:
I haven't either. But what they appear to be proposing is to try
to continue to install XP on a new computer that you buy today and
right on into the future, indefinetly. And I haven't tried that, nor
would I plan on doing it. It assumes that appropriate drivers for
XP, an OS that has been EOL'd, are going to be available for new video
chips, I/O chips etc. Fact is no one is going to waste their time
certifying drivers, making sure they work with current hardware, etc.
And it's not MSFT's fault. Nor is it even what the OP
is asking for, so IDL why a bunch of people are apparently advocating
| > I think a big part of the problem is that Microsoft
| >has had a monopoly and could afford to adopt a
| >parochial attitude. Windows should be more adaptable
| >and less brittle in dealing with new hardware, but MS
| >like to imagine that's not relevant. They assume one
| >Windows license for every machine. So there's little
| >documentation or adaptation of the OS for being moved.
| >(Despite the fact that they charge about $100 extra
| >to millions of people for the Pro license that gives them
| >the legal right to move their "license" and OS to another
| I have never had a problem installing a XP pro (OEM) on another
The original issue was about having it all set
up on a hard disk, then moving that to a new
machine with new hardware. So the problem
there would be whether XP could "survive" the
OEM is a source of confusion. There's been
OEM version Windows, Full version, and Pro version
in the past. The typical prices were about
(At least they have been in the past. I just took
a look at a reseller site and they seem to have
prices all over the place, with a lot more variations:
64-bit only vs 64/32, key only with no disk, etc.
I guess both the licensing and the value of a Windows
disk have been getting more flexible.)
OEM Home is licensed to be installed on only a single
machine. It's the license that OEM builders use on
most retail PCs. One pays extra for a "real" Windows
license that can be installed on any number of machines,
as long as it's one at a time. Pro can also be installed
on multiple machines.
There was a court case a few years ago where
MS was trying to stop the sale of OEM disks online.
Since it was resolved, one can still buy an OEM
disk but the seller must also provide a piece of
hardware, as per the license -- any hardware. :)
Looking at buycheapsoftware.com I see that
they claim to sell such a thing as "OEM Pro". I
would guess that's Pro without a box or manual,
but still licensed for multiple installs. I'm not sure,
but from what you say it sounds that way.
The whole thing gets further confused by the
effort of resellers to make the product look good.
OEM Windows is often referred to as "Full OEM"
while Full version might be called anything except
In any case, if one buys a "Full OEM" disk it
will probably not activate if installed to a second
machine with different hardware. If I were going to
buy "OEM Pro" I'd want to see the license first to
make certain that it wouldn't be limited to a
In my case, it did NOT. Moved the XP 60G HDD from a Vaio (asus
mobo) w/ 2.5MHz Intel P4 cpu to a Vaio (asus mobo) w/ 1.4MHz Intel P4
cpu. Both boxes almost idential except for cpu and memory (RDRAM vs
SDRAM). XP would not boot, even into safe mode, despite similarities
of systems. I think it was the difference in memory or FSB speed (100
vs 133). Whatever, it didn't fly.
Just about every one turns into "the Dell from Hell" when something
goes wrong. I'd never sell one. And when I get one offered to me to
fix and give to someone I CRINGE. It's usually not worth the
Can you imaging what a "wild west" the computer world would be without
someone like Microsoft with the critical mass to influence (or even
control) how software and hardware interact? I can. I've been
involved with computers from before Microsoft became the "standard" -
when there were 4 or 5 different incompatible versions of CPM, as many
different incompatible versions of xNIX, 5 or six competing hard-drive
standards, at leat 5 different video standards (incompatible) and as
many different data formats.
As for the extra $100 for PRO, that is not to allow moving from
machine to machine - OEM versions of PRO are also only licenced to the
machine it is sold with. Pro provides all the network connectivity for
joining domains etc that is not included in the home or standard
If you buy a "retail" copy of Windows it comes with a pretty full set
of drivers - and more are available on the update site - and you can
legally move it to a new machine. You pay a significant premium for
that right - which also includes the right to technical support. OEM
software is to be supported by the OEM (oh yeah!! - ever try to get
OS support from Dell (or Acer, or any other manufacturer)?)
ONLY Retail PRO. OEM Pro is for the original installed machine ONLY.
That assumption is wrong.
"Full OEM" is a microsoft OEM install disk
More common is an OEM RESTORE disk, which is basically an image
install of the OS for the particular PC model - which may only include
the drivers for the hardware installed on that model, and which can
NOT be installed on a competitor's machine. (not just legally - but in
practice as well) Try to install a Dell restore disk to a Toshiba.
No disks are supplied with the computer - you need to make your own
"restore disk". The key provided may or may not work on a "full oem"
installation, and generally will not work with a "retail" install
disk. In many cases you do not need to authorize the OEM restore
install unless something has been changed from the OEM spec (bigger
hard drive, different video, different networking, and sometimes even
additional RAM can trigger it)
On Windows 7 and 8 OEM restore installs, they are not even supplying
an installation key in many cases.
| "Full OEM" is a microsoft OEM install disk
| More common is an OEM RESTORE disk, which is basically an image
| install of the OS for the particular PC model - which may only include
| the drivers for the hardware installed on that model, and which can
| NOT be installed on a competitor's machine. (not just legally - but in
| practice as well) Try to install a Dell restore disk to a Toshiba.
| No disks are supplied with the computer - you need to make your own
| "restore disk". The key provided may or may not work on a "full oem"
| installation, and generally will not work with a "retail" install
| disk. In many cases you do not need to authorize the OEM restore
| install unless something has been changed from the OEM spec (bigger
| hard drive, different video, different networking, and sometimes even
| additional RAM can trigger it)
| On Windows 7 and 8 OEM restore installs, they are not even supplying
| an installation key in many cases.
I'm afraid I've opened a can of worms. :) One can buy
an OEM disk online. It's a Windows install disk. It's not
a restore disk. A restore disk not something one buys. It
just comes with some PCs. You're conflating two different
OEM stands for original equipment manufacturer. Microsoft
sells licenses to those companies in bulk. (HP, Dell, etc.)
Those companies then sometimes sell their overstock
as true Windows install disks but with an OEM license version
key. It's licensed to be installed on a single PC. It comes with
a key that works, but it can't be activated a second time on
different hardware. If you buy the OEM install disk then
officially you are then the OEM. That's the other difference
with an OEM license: You are responsible for the tech
support because you're the OEM. But you can install that
copy of Windows to any machine -- once.
No I'm not confusing them.. LEGALLY you cannot buy an OEM disk
separate from hardware. Used to be you could buy it with a memory
chip. They were often sold with defective parallel port cards od dead
bios chips just to get around the licence issues - sorta.
When Microsoft clamped down and said a processor or mother board was
required, the resellers started selling them with defective
motherboards which they disposed of for you to save shipping charges.
I know this was done, because I bought a few. (for my own personal
I worked for a legitimate OEM for 5 years
It cannot be LEGALLY installed on another machine - Physically, there
is nothing stopping you from doing it (or even installing it on 5
computers at once)
It will eventually ask for and fail activation, but when you do the
phone activation it just asks how many machines it has been installed
on - and if you lie and say "one" it will activate with no problem -
IF it is a full install.
A restore disk is a different story - and you CAN buy restore disks on
ebay for some computers.
If you are not licenced with Microsoft as an OEM you cannot legally
buy OEM software from Microsoft or through distribution (the only way
to legally buy OEM software) Any OEM selling the software separately
(without a computer) is technically breaking his licence agreement
On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 01:01:53 -0400, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
If you have the tiniest amount of information, (a model number, maybe
a serial, maybe not) an OEM will sell you an install disk, typically
I have a Dell disk and an HP disk.
They will work on any machine I have ever tried to use them on as long
as you come up with a 25 digit code. That does not have to be
installed on a machine from the same company that sold that code.
MS may have enforced that once but not for years.
I am currently typing on a no name PC with an Intel branded system
board running on an OEM version of XP that was originally sold on a
Dell. I just needed the system board drivers for this board to install
| If you are not licenced with Microsoft as an OEM you cannot legally
| buy OEM software from Microsoft or through distribution (the only way
| to legally buy OEM software) Any OEM selling the software separately
| (without a computer) is technically breaking his licence agreement
| with Microsoft.
This is an interesting issue. And confusing. At the following link
an MS spokewoman is quoted saying that using OEM is
fine, as long as you provide the support (Vista):
At this link Microsoft has apparently changed their tune
Interestingly, neither Ed bott's link to the actual system
builder license, nor Microsoft's own links on their own site,
are working. I get server error 500 on all of them. I tried
3 different links at MS. This was one of them:
Despite refusing to show me a copy of the license, they
do say in a FAQ for Win8 that OEM is not for personal use:
Meanwhile, there's this about Win8 from Mary Jo Foley:
"But the new Windows 8 system-builder license includes a personal-use
license that stipulates a DIYer/hobbyist can buy the System Builder
software, install it on one's own PC or virtual machine and keep the right
to transfer that license to another PC that the individual owns."
And at this official Windows blog it clearly states that DIY builders can
buy OEM Win8:
"If you are building your own PC from scratch... - you will want to purchase
the Windows 8 edition or Windows 8 Pro edition OEM product known as "System
Builder". You can find these products online at local retailers."
Both the OEM and "full retail box", though priced differently,
are selling for the same price at buycheapsoftware.com.
($93 and $96 respectively.)
What does all that mean? I think there are two issues.
One is that their licensing schemes are dubious to begin
with and MS probably doesn't want to shed much light on them.
They claim OEM Windows is licensed to a piece of plastic,
yet they also claim it's intellectual property. My motherboard
never agreed to any license. Then they define OEM licensing,
yet claim that DIY builders can't use that license. Why not,
if we act as OEMs and take responsibility for support? When
I bought full version Win98 the license said I could transfer
my license to another person, but that only one transfer is
allowed. Yet that illegally defies the first sale doctrine. (They
could say I agreed to the license in buying and using the
software, but then why can't a book publisher put such a
license inside their book?)
The other issue is that MS wants to sell Windows and wants
all PCs to run Windows. It's not in their interest to stop DIY
builders. Also, OEM companies like Dell like to sell their
overstock when a Windows version goes out, which is only
fair, since they help Microsoft by buying millions of licenses
upfront so that MS can claim that Vista or Win8 has "already
sold xx million copies". Contrasted with the OEMs are the
small business system builders who don't want OEM Windows
to be available or legal. (The same trick plumbers and electricians
use: If you can't legally do it yourself then the people who
can do it can charge a bundle.)
So I'm guessing that Microsoft is deliberately obfuscating
the whole issue, so that they can appear to support all
of the different parties involved. They may be giving a break
to online retailers in order to get the full version pricing in
line with OEM version pricing. In that case it would make sense
to just buy the full version. Otherwise, assuming I ever find
a reason to touch Win8+ with a proverbial 10-foot-pole, I
wouldn't see any reason not to get the OEM version.
I suppose that maybe one could also just sign up to
become an official system builder, but of course I can't find
anyplace that Microsoft will tell me what that entails, either. :)
On Saturday, April 5, 2014 10:20:28 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
Like most people, I just avoid all that confusion and trouble by buying
a pre-built PC from a major manufacturer. It comes with a licensed
up to date OS, the hardware is all tested to run with the OS, it's
supported, still allows reasonable configuration of adding drives,
more memory, etc, it's available at competitive prices and frequently
you can get other great deals, like MSFT Office starter for free, Norton
for a year for free, full Office for $100, etc. Then I make a set of
recovery DVD's. It even has the whole as shipped system image on the
drive for recovery too. No fuss, no muss.
| Like most people, I just avoid all that confusion and trouble by buying
| a pre-built PC from a major manufacturer. It comes with a licensed
| up to date OS, the hardware is all tested to run with the OS, it's
| supported, still allows reasonable configuration of adding drives,
| more memory, etc, it's available at competitive prices and frequently
| you can get other great deals, like MSFT Office starter for free, Norton
| for a year for free, full Office for $100, etc. Then I make a set of
| recovery DVD's. It even has the whole as shipped system image on the
| drive for recovery too. No fuss, no muss.
That certainly makes sense for most people. PCs
are cheap these days. This sub-thread was just
dealing with potential issues that people saving
a backup-disk or disk image might face if, for some
reason, they end up needing to install that to a
different PC. There can be both licensing and
hardware/software issues. Your recovery DVDs
may be useless except on the PC you bought. That's
not so bad if you only paid $300 for the computer,
but it's something to be aware of. A compilation
of hardware, combined with a software operating
system, is being sold as virtually a disposable one-
On Saturday, April 5, 2014 11:24:27 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
Yes, I would expect that it's very likely the recovery
disks would be useless, except on the original PC.
Not sure that it matters if the PC cost $400 or $700.
If one part of that PC fails, eg the hard drive, I can
replace it and recover using the recovery disks. And if
you decide to replace the whole thing, then it comes with
a new OS. Also, in any of these systems, considering all
that you get for $400 or $700, you're not paying very much
for an OS. It's not like you have a $250 OS that you should
expect to be able to move to any machine. It used to be that
you got an OS CD, DVD, etc that you could do that with. But
the way most PC's are shipped today, you don't get anything.
My HP's didn't come with even recovery disks. They just bug
you to create them on your own, which of course you should.
Another really dumb thing that's going on, at least with HP,
is that when you use the recovery disks, you wind up wiping
out the entire drive and any and all partitions. You would think
they would give you the option of doing a recovery to just the
main system partition and optionally leave any other partitions
alone. That way if the system is getting screwed up, but it's
still running, you could copy stuff you want to save to the other
partition, then do the recovery. Even worse, it's not clear which
way it actually works. I saw threads where people got conflicting
answers from HP. Some were being told that you could leave existing
partitions on there and they would be OK. I had to do this a few months
ago and found out that it does indeed delete all partitions, but I
was prepared for it. Other than that, it worked really well. Had it
restored in less than a half hour.
Which is how most consumer products have always been sold.
I would not have a PC with just one drive in it. The idea is you have
a fairly small C: drive with nothing but software on it and ALL of
your work space, data files or whatever is on the D: drive. You can
simply copy that drive to your backup and restore it with drag and
drop. Then you image your C: to back that up after you have changed
all of your program destination directories.. Even if you did use the
restore disks, you still have not lost any data.
The dumbest thing I have ever seem is people using "My Documents" for
anything. That is buried in windoze and the first thing you lose even
if you just delete the windows directory and just reinstall it.
On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 01:32:42 -0400, email@example.com wrote:
True of an OEM INSTALL disk, Won't work with an OEM RESTORE disk.
Basically any OEM INSTALL disk is a microsoft install disk, the same
as a retail disk, but with an OEM licence, and requiring an OEM key.
Up until Windows 7 (not sure about 7 and 8) the key was specific to
the actual "product" - and each product had it's own disk.
With Win7 and on, you can get a disk that will install as 32 or 64
bit, and sometimes even standard or professional, depending on the key
used. Standard practice is to buy the key and download the install (a
cheapassed way of doing things, as far as I'm concerned)
On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 12:56:42 -0400, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
"My Documents is NOT burried in the windows directory. Never has
been. It is in the "documents and settings" directory in Pre Win7, and
in the "users" directory in 7 and up.
If you use a "restore" disk, you use your documents if they are
anywhere on the "C" partition, or anywhere on the "C" drive if the
original install is a single operating partition.
If you use an "install" disk you can re-install without affecting the
data if you do a "repair install" with XP and previous. In "most"
cases the repair install won't even require re-installation of most
If you do a "full install" it will overwrite anything in the boot
partition, but leave everything in an "extended partition" (such as a
"D" drive or data partition on a large single hard drive) untouched.
Always good to have a backup anyway.
On Saturday, April 5, 2014 5:52:42 PM UTC-4, email@example.com wrote:
I think you meant "lose your documents", not "use."
And as I previously pointed out, with HP at least, you'll lose
everything on the hard drive without regard to any partitions
if you do a restore. It puts the PC back to exactly the as-shipped
Do most PC's even come with install disk anymore? Years ago they
did. The last two I bought only come with the OS and apps, eg MSFT Office,
installed and a restore image on a hard drive partition. Again, with
HP's that I have, if you use that restore image, it wipes out everything,
including any other partitions and puts the PC back to as-shipped.
They also tell you and remind you to make a set of restore DVDs, in
case the HD fails. That's all that you have, no Win7, MSFT Office
Probably so on some and I agree that's how I would design the
recovery software, but as noted at least HP doesn't work that way.
On Sunday, April 6, 2014 11:36:34 AM UTC-4, Bob_Villa wrote:
I believe you're wrong. What Dell has available if you don't make your
own restore DVD's is apparently the same thing most other PC manufacturers now
give you. That is they will sell (maybe give) you a factory set of restore
disks. That is *not* a Windows install DVD, not a MSFT Office install
DVD, etc. It's essentially a mirror image of the as shipped software
load, similar to what you'd have if you made a system image backup using
any recovery software. It's also what's on most PC's in a special disk
partition for recovery. And if you do what you're supposed to, you wind
up with the same thing for free, by creating your own restore DVDs when
you first set up the PC. None of that is a Windows OS Install DVD.
On Sunday, April 6, 2014 11:08:57 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
What you get is a full Dell OEM version OS DVD and another DVD with drivers and installed programs from your original install.
I have sent for another set (W7 64-bit) (new system) a few days ago...so I will see if you still get the same thing as before.
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