OT computers

[trader_4]

I haven't either. But what they appear to be proposing is to try to continue to install XP on a new computer that you buy today and right on into the future, indefinetly. And I haven't tried that, nor would I plan on doing it. It assumes that appropriate drivers for XP, an OS that has been EOL'd, are going to be available for new video chips, I/O chips etc. Fact is no one is going to waste their time certifying drivers, making sure they work with current hardware, etc. And it's not MSFT's fault. Nor is it even what the OP is asking for, so IDL why a bunch of people are apparently advocating it.

[clare]

Just about every one turns into "the Dell from Hell" when something goes wrong. I'd never sell one. And when I get one offered to me to fix and give to someone I CRINGE. It's usually not worth the downstream agravation.

Can you imaging what a "wild west" the computer world would be without someone like Microsoft with the critical mass to influence (or even control) how software and hardware interact? I can. I've been involved with computers from before Microsoft became the "standard" - when there were 4 or 5 different incompatible versions of CPM, as many different incompatible versions of xNIX, 5 or six competing hard-drive standards, at leat 5 different video standards (incompatible) and as many different data formats.

As for the extra $100 for PRO, that is not to allow moving from machine to machine - OEM versions of PRO are also only licenced to the machine it is sold with. Pro provides all the network connectivity for joining domains etc that is not included in the home or standard versions.

If you buy a "retail" copy of Windows it comes with a pretty full set of drivers - and more are available on the update site - and you can legally move it to a new machine. You pay a significant premium for that right - which also includes the right to technical support. OEM software is to be supported by the OEM (oh yeah!! - ever try to get OS support from Dell (or Acer, or any other manufacturer)?)

[clare]

ONLY Retail PRO. OEM Pro is for the original installed machine ONLY.

That assumption is wrong.

"Full OEM" is a microsoft OEM install disk More common is an OEM RESTORE disk, which is basically an image install of the OS for the particular PC model - which may only include the drivers for the hardware installed on that model, and which can NOT be installed on a competitor's machine. (not just legally - but in practice as well) Try to install a Dell restore disk to a Toshiba.

No disks are supplied with the computer - you need to make your own "restore disk". The key provided may or may not work on a "full oem" installation, and generally will not work with a "retail" install disk. In many cases you do not need to authorize the OEM restore install unless something has been changed from the OEM spec (bigger hard drive, different video, different networking, and sometimes even additional RAM can trigger it)

On Windows 7 and 8 OEM restore installs, they are not even supplying an installation key in many cases.

[clare]

Check what video chip was on each board.

[Mayayana]

| "Full OEM" is a microsoft OEM install disk | More common is an OEM RESTORE disk, which is basically an image | install of the OS for the particular PC model - which may only include | the drivers for the hardware installed on that model, and which can | NOT be installed on a competitor's machine. (not just legally - but in | practice as well) Try to install a Dell restore disk to a Toshiba. | | No disks are supplied with the computer - you need to make your own | "restore disk". The key provided may or may not work on a "full oem" | installation, and generally will not work with a "retail" install | disk. In many cases you do not need to authorize the OEM restore | install unless something has been changed from the OEM spec (bigger | hard drive, different video, different networking, and sometimes even | additional RAM can trigger it) | | On Windows 7 and 8 OEM restore installs, they are not even supplying | an installation key in many cases. |

I'm afraid I've opened a can of worms. :) One can buy an OEM disk online. It's a Windows install disk. It's not a restore disk. A restore disk not something one buys. It just comes with some PCs. You're conflating two different things.

OEM stands for original equipment manufacturer. Microsoft sells licenses to those companies in bulk. (HP, Dell, etc.) Those companies then sometimes sell their overstock as true Windows install disks but with an OEM license version key. It's licensed to be installed on a single PC. It comes with a key that works, but it can't be activated a second time on different hardware. If you buy the OEM install disk then officially you are then the OEM. That's the other difference with an OEM license: You are responsible for the tech support because you're the OEM. But you can install that copy of Windows to any machine -- once.

[clare]

No I'm not confusing them.. LEGALLY you cannot buy an OEM disk separate from hardware. Used to be you could buy it with a memory chip. They were often sold with defective parallel port cards od dead bios chips just to get around the licence issues - sorta.

When Microsoft clamped down and said a processor or mother board was required, the resellers started selling them with defective motherboards which they disposed of for you to save shipping charges. I know this was done, because I bought a few. (for my own personal use)

I worked for a legitimate OEM for 5 years

It cannot be LEGALLY installed on another machine - Physically, there is nothing stopping you from doing it (or even installing it on 5 computers at once) It will eventually ask for and fail activation, but when you do the phone activation it just asks how many machines it has been installed on - and if you lie and say "one" it will activate with no problem - IF it is a full install. A restore disk is a different story - and you CAN buy restore disks on ebay for some computers.

If you are not licenced with Microsoft as an OEM you cannot legally buy OEM software from Microsoft or through distribution (the only way to legally buy OEM software) Any OEM selling the software separately (without a computer) is technically breaking his licence agreement with Microsoft.

[gfretwell]

If you have the tiniest amount of information, (a model number, maybe a serial, maybe not) an OEM will sell you an install disk, typically $10. I have a Dell disk and an HP disk. They will work on any machine I have ever tried to use them on as long as you come up with a 25 digit code. That does not have to be installed on a machine from the same company that sold that code. MS may have enforced that once but not for years. I am currently typing on a no name PC with an Intel branded system board running on an OEM version of XP that was originally sold on a Dell. I just needed the system board drivers for this board to install it.

[Mayayana]

| If you are not licenced with Microsoft as an OEM you cannot legally | buy OEM software from Microsoft or through distribution (the only way | to legally buy OEM software) Any OEM selling the software separately | (without a computer) is technically breaking his licence agreement | with Microsoft. |

This is an interesting issue. And confusing. At the following link an MS spokewoman is quoted saying that using OEM is fine, as long as you provide the support (Vista):

At this link Microsoft has apparently changed their tune for Win7:

Interestingly, neither Ed bott's link to the actual system builder license, nor Microsoft's own links on their own site, are working. I get server error 500 on all of them. I tried

3 different links at MS. This was one of them:

Despite refusing to show me a copy of the license, they do say in a FAQ for Win8 that OEM is not for personal use:

Meanwhile, there's this about Win8 from Mary Jo Foley:

"But the new Windows 8 system-builder license includes a personal-use license that stipulates a DIYer/hobbyist can buy the System Builder software, install it on one's own PC or virtual machine and keep the right to transfer that license to another PC that the individual owns."

And at this official Windows blog it clearly states that DIY builders can buy OEM Win8:

"If you are building your own PC from scratch... - you will want to purchase the Windows 8 edition or Windows 8 Pro edition OEM product known as "System Builder". You can find these products online at local retailers."

Both the OEM and "full retail box", though priced differently, are selling for the same price at buycheapsoftware.com. ($93 and $96 respectively.)

What does all that mean? I think there are two issues.

One is that their licensing schemes are dubious to begin with and MS probably doesn't want to shed much light on them. They claim OEM Windows is licensed to a piece of plastic, yet they also claim it's intellectual property. My motherboard never agreed to any license. Then they define OEM licensing, yet claim that DIY builders can't use that license. Why not, if we act as OEMs and take responsibility for support? When I bought full version Win98 the license said I could transfer my license to another person, but that only one transfer is allowed. Yet that illegally defies the first sale doctrine. (They could say I agreed to the license in buying and using the software, but then why can't a book publisher put such a license inside their book?)

The other issue is that MS wants to sell Windows and wants all PCs to run Windows. It's not in their interest to stop DIY builders. Also, OEM companies like Dell like to sell their overstock when a Windows version goes out, which is only fair, since they help Microsoft by buying millions of licenses upfront so that MS can claim that Vista or Win8 has "already sold xx million copies". Contrasted with the OEMs are the small business system builders who don't want OEM Windows to be available or legal. (The same trick plumbers and electricians use: If you can't legally do it yourself then the people who can do it can charge a bundle.)

So I'm guessing that Microsoft is deliberately obfuscating the whole issue, so that they can appear to support all of the different parties involved. They may be giving a break to online retailers in order to get the full version pricing in line with OEM version pricing. In that case it would make sense to just buy the full version. Otherwise, assuming I ever find a reason to touch Win8+ with a proverbial 10-foot-pole, I wouldn't see any reason not to get the OEM version.

I suppose that maybe one could also just sign up to become an official system builder, but of course I can't find anyplace that Microsoft will tell me what that entails, either. :)

[trader_4]

Like most people, I just avoid all that confusion and trouble by buying a pre-built PC from a major manufacturer. It comes with a licensed up to date OS, the hardware is all tested to run with the OS, it's supported, still allows reasonable configuration of adding drives, more memory, etc, it's available at competitive prices and frequently you can get other great deals, like MSFT Office starter for free, Norton for a year for free, full Office for $100, etc. Then I make a set of recovery DVD's. It even has the whole as shipped system image on the drive for recovery too. No fuss, no muss.

[Mayayana]

| Like most people, I just avoid all that confusion and trouble by buying | a pre-built PC from a major manufacturer. It comes with a licensed | up to date OS, the hardware is all tested to run with the OS, it's | supported, still allows reasonable configuration of adding drives, | more memory, etc, it's available at competitive prices and frequently | you can get other great deals, like MSFT Office starter for free, Norton | for a year for free, full Office for $100, etc. Then I make a set of | recovery DVD's. It even has the whole as shipped system image on the | drive for recovery too. No fuss, no muss.

That certainly makes sense for most people. PCs are cheap these days. This sub-thread was just dealing with potential issues that people saving a backup-disk or disk image might face if, for some reason, they end up needing to install that to a different PC. There can be both licensing and hardware/software issues. Your recovery DVDs may be useless except on the PC you bought. That's not so bad if you only paid $300 for the computer, but it's something to be aware of. A compilation of hardware, combined with a software operating system, is being sold as virtually a disposable one- piece unit.

[trader_4]

Yes, I would expect that it's very likely the recovery disks would be useless, except on the original PC.

That's

Not sure that it matters if the PC cost $400 or $700. If one part of that PC fails, eg the hard drive, I can replace it and recover using the recovery disks. And if you decide to replace the whole thing, then it comes with a new OS. Also, in any of these systems, considering all that you get for $400 or $700, you're not paying very much for an OS. It's not like you have a $250 OS that you should expect to be able to move to any machine. It used to be that you got an OS CD, DVD, etc that you could do that with. But the way most PC's are shipped today, you don't get anything. My HP's didn't come with even recovery disks. They just bug you to create them on your own, which of course you should.

Another really dumb thing that's going on, at least with HP, is that when you use the recovery disks, you wind up wiping out the entire drive and any and all partitions. You would think they would give you the option of doing a recovery to just the main system partition and optionally leave any other partitions alone. That way if the system is getting screwed up, but it's still running, you could copy stuff you want to save to the other partition, then do the recovery. Even worse, it's not clear which way it actually works. I saw threads where people got conflicting answers from HP. Some were being told that you could leave existing partitions on there and they would be OK. I had to do this a few months ago and found out that it does indeed delete all partitions, but I was prepared for it. Other than that, it worked really well. Had it restored in less than a half hour.

Which is how most consumer products have always been sold.

[gfretwell]

I would not have a PC with just one drive in it. The idea is you have a fairly small C: drive with nothing but software on it and ALL of your work space, data files or whatever is on the D: drive. You can simply copy that drive to your backup and restore it with drag and drop. Then you image your C: to back that up after you have changed all of your program destination directories.. Even if you did use the restore disks, you still have not lost any data.

The dumbest thing I have ever seem is people using "My Documents" for anything. That is buried in windoze and the first thing you lose even if you just delete the windows directory and just reinstall it.

[clare]

True of an OEM INSTALL disk, Won't work with an OEM RESTORE disk. Basically any OEM INSTALL disk is a microsoft install disk, the same as a retail disk, but with an OEM licence, and requiring an OEM key.

Up until Windows 7 (not sure about 7 and 8) the key was specific to the actual "product" - and each product had it's own disk.

With Win7 and on, you can get a disk that will install as 32 or 64 bit, and sometimes even standard or professional, depending on the key used. Standard practice is to buy the key and download the install (a cheapassed way of doing things, as far as I'm concerned)

[clare]

"My Documents is NOT burried in the windows directory. Never has been. It is in the "documents and settings" directory in Pre Win7, and in the "users" directory in 7 and up.

If you use a "restore" disk, you use your documents if they are anywhere on the "C" partition, or anywhere on the "C" drive if the original install is a single operating partition.

If you use an "install" disk you can re-install without affecting the data if you do a "repair install" with XP and previous. In "most" cases the repair install won't even require re-installation of most software.

If you do a "full install" it will overwrite anything in the boot partition, but leave everything in an "extended partition" (such as a "D" drive or data partition on a large single hard drive) untouched.

Always good to have a backup anyway.

[gfretwell]

I should have said "A" windows directory.

They will be gone if you do a clean install, that was my point.

[trader_4]

I think you meant "lose your documents", not "use." And as I previously pointed out, with HP at least, you'll lose everything on the hard drive without regard to any partitions if you do a restore. It puts the PC back to exactly the as-shipped condition

Do most PC's even come with install disk anymore? Years ago they did. The last two I bought only come with the OS and apps, eg MSFT Office, installed and a restore image on a hard drive partition. Again, with HP's that I have, if you use that restore image, it wipes out everything, including any other partitions and puts the PC back to as-shipped. They also tell you and remind you to make a set of restore DVDs, in case the HD fails. That's all that you have, no Win7, MSFT Office disks period.

Probably so on some and I agree that's how I would design the recovery software, but as noted at least HP doesn't work that way.

[Bob_Villa]

I believe if you order for business (home, small, large office) you will get a Windows OS DVD and a drivers disk from Dell. For home users you have to go to their site and register for one, free.

[trader_4]

I believe you're wrong. What Dell has available if you don't make your own restore DVD's is apparently the same thing most other PC manufacturers now give you. That is they will sell (maybe give) you a factory set of restore disks. That is *not* a Windows install DVD, not a MSFT Office install DVD, etc. It's essentially a mirror image of the as shipped software load, similar to what you'd have if you made a system image backup using any recovery software. It's also what's on most PC's in a special disk partition for recovery. And if you do what you're supposed to, you wind up with the same thing for free, by creating your own restore DVDs when you first set up the PC. None of that is a Windows OS Install DVD.

[gfretwell]

That is something that happened after XP. I know they sent me a disk that had W/XP at SP2 on it and that is probably the disk I am going to use to reload my new W/7 Lenovo tonight or tomorrow. I spent a couple hours trying to fall in love with W/7 last night but it ain't happening. I am going to pull that drive and put it away for another day.

[Bob_Villa]

What you get is a full Dell OEM version OS DVD and another DVD with drivers and installed programs from your original install. I have sent for another set (W7 64-bit) (new system) a few days ago...so I will see if you still get the same thing as before.