Nobody was listening.

[FDR]

I don't think that letting people have free access to firearm stores during an emergency is a good idea. It's obviously bad.

My point which I made several times and a 5 layers up is that people here are talking about shooting a guy stealing a tv set. We may disagree about what effect that has on rescue; I see no real threat to the rescue operation other than pulling people off of rescue duty to go arrest a shoplifter. I don't think that's how resources should be used considering theat the tv is expendable, possibly damaged and covered by insurance anyway. So why bother with a nusance type crime when there are real people dying? Do you think it's better off that you play cop and robber, or play rescuer? The feds tell us that disaster management is a local thing and there's only so many police to coever a large disaster.

[FDR]

Why is a trained officer playing cop and robber while others drown?

[Dave Hinz]

Fair enough, it's just that you made that same point to me an hour or two earlier as well. And killfiles are a great way of improving signal:noise ratio - it's not an act of "wow, I can't compete with that", it's a statement of "Wow, that's not even worth my time to read". Try 'em, you'll like 'em.

[Dave Hinz]

Ah, there's the problem. You have _good_ people, and you have _bad_ people. Do you acknowledge that difference?

Good people with guns don't threaten anyone but bad people. By definition. Bad people with guns, threaten everybody.

As if that's all he's stealing? But yes, he's stealing a TV set. He is exploiting society at a time when it's most vunlerable. He's a _bad person_.

Because that looter is causing civil disorder, which is a bigger threat than you understand in an emergency.

Oddly enough, once the "shoot to kill" order went out, looting decreased dramatically and almost immediately. Do you not see how that improved matters?

If I owned a house in NO, and a looter came in, I _would_ shoot to kill, no question about it. He's likely to be armed and to be prepared to shoot the people he's "just trying to steal stuff" from. You, on the other hand, say "I don't think that letting people have free access to firearm stores during an emergency is a good idea. It's obviously bad."

In other words, you value the criminal's life over my right to defend myself and my family. Says a lot about where your priorities are.

Whose side are you on, exactly?

[Dave Hinz]

Because that's their function; to preserve law and order. Without that, rescue operations are impossible. Oh, and last I checked? Fire and EMS are in the rescue business; cops aren't trained nearly as highly in rescue as firefighters and EMTs. I'm speaking from direct personal experience on that, by the way. How about you?

[Red Cloud©]

Really? How many times have you been arrested to date?

rusty redcloud

[Dave Hinz]

Exactly zero. But I've been a firefighter and EMT for a dozen or so years. Did you have a point?

[FDR]

You have direct experience of rescuing people in a city flooded by 80% for 5 days after a hurricane hit and a levee broke? I salute your effort.

There weren't enough of firemen/ems/police to do all of the rescuing obviously.

[FDR]

Good people don't kill people stealing tv's. Bad people steal tv's but don't necessarily mean they are murders too.

There's no scorecard that says who's good and who's bad. Cops can be bad guys too. There were some looting if you recall.

Yes he is. And hes stupic because he can't keep his tv when he's been evacuated to Houston.

Hey, there were j walkers too. J walking leads to more lawlessness and you gotta nip it in the bud, right? Were they ticketing j walkers?

I have no evidence to say that happened. Do you?

Who says I was talking about looting a house. All my points have been about stores that had been abandoned.

But if the looter was armed and entering my house I have no problem saying I would defend myself and my family. I have a firearm to do so. Maybe you just don't get the point I was trying to make.

[FDR]

Was martial law ever declared? Were there enough officers to enforce it?

[FDR]

I feel it's been the opposite.

[Dave Hinz]

No, I have direct personal experience being a firefighter and EMT for a dozen years. I can't imagine how you possibly could have read what I wrote and deduced that I'm responding in NOLA for this event.

No shit? The area affected is the size of the entire British Isles. It's a BIG FREAKING PROBLEM. Made worse by criminals who are rightfully being shot.

[Dave Hinz]

When their actions are causing resources to be diverted from the rescue effort, then they _are_ causing deaths. You seem to want to blame the cop; I choose to blame the, you know, criminal.

Bullshit. Absolute, complete, unmitigated bullshit. A person decides if they want to be a criminal or not. Good people don't decide to be criminals.

At this point, I'm sure that I can't trust any of your claims. But, oh, go ahead, please provide a cite.

And, his actions are diverting efforts from rescue to law enforcement. Therefore he is a hazard to life and needs to be responded to appropriately.

Nice red herring there. Are you contending now that j-walking laws were being inforced, which detracted from the rescue efforts? Please provide a cite for such a claim.

And yet, you sure seem to pretend you do.

This is the first time you've stipulated that these were abandoned stores. Gosh, imagine that, your point shifts _yet again_.

Somehow I don't think you're actually the sort who would defend yourself effectively from an intruder. You strike me as the sort who, instead, would "give the nice man what he wants and maybe he won't hurt us". A victim, in other words.

[FDR]

Then how could you possibly know how to rescue people given the circumstances and lack of manpower?

[Dave Hinz]

You really _are_ naiive, aren't you. Criminals aren't stupid, they're immoral. They KNOW people don't like them and will want to shoot them. If you think they haven't planned that one through, you're an idiot.

There you go again. The distinction is clear between looting and taking survival supplies. Unless you claim you need a TV to survive.

[FDR]

So a criminal is a criminal before he commits a crime. Is that what you are trying to say? And you will never ever ever do anything bad, because you're a good guy. You'll neve resort to let's say murdering your wife if you caught her in bed with your best friend. You can be absolutely sure huh?

Well, I can't wade through 10 days and thousands of Katrina stories. But witnesess on the second day said they saw police joinig in on looting a WalMart. Either way, there have been plenty of police in other situations that have been found guilty of extortion and other crimes. They are supposed to be good guys. But according to you they chose to be bad, so how are we so sure that they will remain good or go bad?

Only if you allow your efforts to be diverted.

No they weren't being enforced. Adn that's exactly it. If we follow the logic of nipping it in the bud, then geez, jwalking is a crime, and stealing food is a crime too. If stealing food is a crime, then those who did it might get the idea they can taken anything else they wanted. So go and arrest those stealers too. Nip it in the bud.

I meant, you provided no evidence to support that claim.

Uhm no. Go back and read what I said.

You wouldn't have the balls to find out.

[FDR]

It's still stealing. You know, stealing means you are taking what isn't yours. It isn't that hard to make the next step and start taking things you don't need for survival.

People do go to jail for stealing remember? That's against the law. You don't want criminal behavior happening during a disaster. It just takes away from the effort to save people. I don't care if they starve to death, just as long as the government doesn't have to have their resources diverted from saving people.

Survival supplies should have been bought legally before the storm hit. Doing so afterwards is stealing if money isn't being exchanged or if the stuff isn't said to be free. You don't think that stuff didn't cost the shopowner money? I don't care about the insurance, there must be law and order damnit!

See, I learned exactly what you all said. Now I know how to tell the good guys from the bad guys. Cause bad guys break the law by stealing. And good guys don't. So if I'm ever in a disaster situation I'll make sure I kill all those who steal, even if it's somebody taking a bottole of water. Well, I won't if he has a receipt.

[FDR]

Isn't that a good thing? Now we know what to expect, or not expect, when the next terrorist attack happens.

[FDR]

And FEMA is also capable of asserting control if it wants to ever since

9/11.

[FDR]

Gun is the slang and improper term.