The arrogance in this group is overwhelming.
You treat people who want to do work in their
own home as cheap stupid animals who should
depend completely on the local HVAC contractor.
Why? What makes you and this trade so special?
Is it because you get to look down your nose at other
commercial/residential construction workers you run into
that don't have a 2 year degree?
Looking to save a buck maybe part of the reason
why people want to do their own work. The desire
to be self-reliant is part of it too.
Would you hire someone to do any of these things:
1. ) Replace the power supply in your PC
2. ) Insulate the Attic
3. ) Install drop ceiling in rear bedroom
4. ) Replace compnents in the toilet
5. ) Replace the stairs to the back porch
6. ) Replace hot water heater
7. ) Add an electical outlet
8. ) Install a ceiling fan
The bizarre thing about it is there is so much work
in this field and there's is always jobs in the paper,
and yet most of you act as if your starving.
ok......there is _some_ degree of arrogance but ill tell you......its
EARNED. anyone can hack, but to truly _master_ the trade takes far more
skill than you could possibly appreciate.
if you spend the time to master the trade and get the proper certifications
you can do all you want......until such time you SHOULD depend completely on
a licensed, experienced contractor.
um......its a specialized trade.
now youre just being an asshole.
.......and for the record some of the most knowledgeable techs youll ever
meet have _never_ been to trade school.
in violation of the law, as well as potentially endangering your family.
nope. i would tell my 12 year old to do it.
nothing hazardous there, so long as you follow the basic codes.
monkey work (any trained monkey could do it).
1- if the water was hot, it wouldnt need a heater.
2- quite often changing a water heater is an hvac issue anyway. look up
hydronic heat sometime.
no code against it in montana.
has nothing to do with starving. most every job you listed pays less than
$12 an hour. why? little to no skill involved. hvac is a science and the
homeowner most often has no business touching it other than to do the basics
(changing filters/t-stat/cleaning coils, etc.).
Nathan in Montana
I stand corrected. So beyond the Duct Calculator,
the HVAC Tech's understanding is "tips and tricks"
and "rules of thumb" learned over the years of working?
This response to my original post only validates
the presumtion that the following 3 approaches
should be sufficient:
A) using "tools" software or otherwise,
.to determine sizing.
B)"rules of thumb" to simplify the work otherwise done
by complex equations that, apparently, most HVAC
Techs don't know anyway.
C) "Tips and Tricks" gathered from more experienced
Tech through a variety of mediums.
I'm still not convinced that your trade is as esoteric as you
like to make it. The countless disparaging responses in this
group only fuel my inquiry. The question, "Is this really that
complicated or is there some other agenda here", stands as
tall as the questions about the HVAC project itself.
This is the Information Age. Aquisition and exchange of
of knowledge that would have taken someone years to
gather can be aquired in months or weeks.
Damn! What kind of learning disability do you have? If that is all you
have learned about HVAC work, then you have not been paying much attention.
If you wanted to begin to learn about the knowledge required of HVAC
technicians, you could start by reviewing the national standards and the
technical journals published by all of these organizations:
a.. ACCA -- Air Conditioning Contractors of America
b.. AHAM -- Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers
c.. ANSI -- American National Standards Institute
d.. ARI -- Air-Conditioning and Refrigeration Institute
e.. AMCA -- Air Movement & Control Association
f.. ARWI -- Air-conditioning & Refrigeration Wholesalers Association
g.. ASHRAE -- American Society of Heating, Refrigerating & A/C Engineers
h.. GAMA -- Gas Appliance Manufacturers Association
i.. HARDI -- Heating, Airconditioning and Refrigeration Distributors
j.. HRAI -- Heating, Refrigerating, & Air-Conditioning Institute of Canada
k.. IIAR -- Inernational Institute of Ammonia Refrigeration
l.. NAM -- National Association of Manufacturers
m.. NATE -- North American Technician Excellence Program
n.. PHCC -- Plumbing Heating Cooling Contractors Association
o.. RSES -- Refrigeration Service Engineers Society
p.. SMACNA -- Sheet Metal and Air Conditioning Contractors' National
Hah! I guess you earned your PhD by visiting the website of the PhD school
in the Virgin Islands?
You should be quite capable of performing spinal cord surgery after a few
hours on Google?
Richard, you are quite a DUMBSHIT.
no. its a trade most often masastered only after years of working under
others who have already mastered the trade (journeymen). i wouldnt hire
someone fresh out of tech school, i dont care how much of a degree they
have. id much rather find someone with 5+ years of OJT.
your over-simplification shows your ignorance in this field. i dont mean
ignorance as a common insult mind you, im using the literal definition.
heh......i dont care. i legally profit well into the 6 figures and i dont
even have a high school diploma.
some folks come off as assholes, ill give you that. still, it has nothing
to do with the validity of the complexity of this trade.
this is _only_ due to your own ignorance. the question has indeed been
just because information is readily available does not make one a master of
that same information. knowing how to apply the information is not
something you can learn from anything youll find on the internet. sorry, no
Nathan in Montana
The real point is Richard, that these guys cannot see your system and
diagnose it for you. They can't take a chance and give you advice that may
cause injury to you, your family or cause your house to burn down.
I'm not in the HVAC trade, and it took me a while reading through many many
posts here to realize that this is really a place for the trades guys too
shoot the breeze after work and have some fun. Not as much fun as a tittie
bar, but lots cheaper. And when home owners (shhh, I am one too!) ask
questions, I don't think they really give a shit about you wanting to save a
few bucks; at least I don't think its the MAIN concern. There IS lots to
know about this trade. I have worked with a friend of mine who is in, and it
amazes me, some of the stuff we think is simple just has to be done
correctly to work right. Sure, a shade tree mechanic can assemble a runnable
engine from salvaged parts from failed ones, but that does not make him a
NASCAR mechanic by any means. We all try to save money by doing things
ourselves, me included. Sometimes I do a better job than a "Pro" in some
fields, but HVAC covers lots of ground. I can't do HVAC work properly; I
have tried, thinking I knew what I was doing, but I found out I only knew
enough to fool myself.
Now enough of me trying to be a good guy. I am a grouchy old bastard having
a weak moment.
Much of what you say is true, but often posters will simply ask the
opinion of what a professional thinks of a manufacturer's equipment or
HVAC procedure. Such a request is not asking for the revealing of trade
secrets, any more than asking a neighbor who owns a particular brand
what he thinks of his car.
Everyone agrees that spending your money on a competent professional is
better than spending it on an incompetent one. Recently I had my
heating/AC systems replaced and sought recommendations from others I
knew about who did a quality job at a competitive price. At the
recommendation of several such neighbors, I had several professionals
bid on the job. Before they even looked at the job I stated that I
wanted a "Quality job" done and that if they were not able to do so,
they should not even bid on the job.
Now I will not go into every item I had them correct, but I will say
his idea of quality and mine was not the same. I fact, I KNOW some of
the items were in violation of the codes.
I WILL say that he did comply with my complaints, and the systems are
NOW working to my expectations. It is just a shame that I had to bring
to his attention items that he was prepared to ignore, as he saw the job
as complete. Others with less knowledge or less time might have taken
him at his word that he had done the job right.
There are a number of regulars here that claim this supposed to be a
"professionals" only group. But I know there are a number of good,
moderated professional hvac groups that speciifcally ban diy questions.
So why do these regulars stay here and bash homeowners?
I agree that hvac work is a highly technical field and can be very
complicated in some situations. It is not however a science. Your
basic residential split ac or gas furnace is not particularly
complicated. With careful consideration for the dangers involved in
natural gas and high pressure refrigerant some repairs can be made by
so you know how to size a unit? the ductwork? how many microns of humidity
is safe (experienced techs PLEASE dont answer)? how many mF are safe on a 3
ton scroll? surely this is something you can find on google......
Nathan in Montana
and im telling you that they _cant_. if the issue is an electric issue then
i suppose any good monkey could make the repair assuming they could diagnose
it to begin with. _however_, would they be able to determine the original
cause? sure you can crimp on a new spade terminal to make your compressor
run again, but do you know why a compressor burnt its terminal to begin
im not trying to argue. im trying to show you the depths of your own
ignorance. that you would resist this makes my point for me.
Nathan in Montana
which further validates my point about your own level of ignorance on this
industry. again, fixing the problem doesnt solve the cause. for example,
the electrician/homeowner who bypassed his limit switch to make his furnace
run. sure, the furnace ran......and ultimately compromised the heat
exchanger thus endangering his entire family (look up CO sometime). a
skilled HVAC/R technician wouldnt have simply assumed that the limit switch
was bad and bypassed it. its quite possible that youre a journeyman
electrician or mechanic of some type, but do you know what would cause a
limit switch to lock a system out?
im just trying to save you a whole lot of hurt, but if you know better than
Nathan in Montana
You keep wanting to test my knowledge on the subject.
The burnt terminal could have just been a bad connection. But it
suggests that the compressor may have been drawing too much currrent
and further investigation would be called for before calling it fixed.
The limit switch you are referring to will turn off the furnace when an
excessive temperature is reached. Again it calls for further
investigation once it has been determined that the switch is tripping
at the designed for temp. Could be because of inadequate air flow
across the exchanger.
What exactly does it prove for me to know some things? Both of these
are sort of common sense things. They are not specific to hvac. And
ordinary electric clothes dryer has an overtemp limit safety switch.
Bypassing it can result in burning down your house. Possibly just as
fatal as carbon monoxide poisoning. Anyone worth their salt will want
to understand what conditions lead to a component failure. Components
can fail on their own but often it is the result of some factor
exceeded the designed for limits of the component. And bypassing
safety devices is just a bad idea.
Nathan In Montana wrote:
if you believe you can handle hvac/r repairs as good as a qualified service
tech then yes, i do want to test your knowledge.
the compressor drawing to much current would indeed burn the connection, but
this is the side effect of what problem? .....of course you dont have any
idea. this is where field experience comes in.
on the other hand, since there is nothing difficult about this trade i wish
you and your family the best of luck. please dont kill them.
Nathan in Montana
You keep wanting to put words in my mouth. I didn't say there was nothing
difficult, I said SOME OF IT was not difficult.
Shorted windings. Or a problem in the lines or evap causing an excessive
high side pressure. At this point in the problem once I had figured out that
the compressor was probably drawing too much current I would call a service
guy. I don't have the equipment to follow this particular problem much
I noticed you didn't have any complaints about the limit switch answer :-)
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