LOL.. The darn hook just wont come out. But FIY I am not a racist. ;~) I simply believe that every one should have to stand in the same line, so to speak. If a person does not like being treated differently he should not bring attention to himself by acting or dressing differently.
And visa versa. That is a moot point.
People that laugh inappropriately tend to be uneasy with themselves. Good luck with that.
."
messagenews: snipped-for-privacy@72g2000hsu.googlegroups.com...
Yes, I'm not clear on how you think the court should deal with an honest person who refuses to take a religious oath before giving his testimony.
Please tell us.
I'm firm in my belief that my religion is none of the state's goddamn business and will not take a religious oath at the behest of the state.
Nor would I give false testimony.
Like ANY ONE else, he gets tossed in jail for contempt. I mentioned this in another post, EVERYONE stands in the same line, read that as no one gets special treatment. If you feel that you are being picked on because you are different, quit being different. You have that choice.
That is good to know.
Better not get caught in court in Texas.
messagenews: snipped-for-privacy@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
The only reason a President takes his oath of office with his hand on a bible is because he choses to do so. Some have chosen not to.
OK.... I'm going to get some popcorn now. This could get good.
Robert
There are some strange and disturbing happenings in Houston, that's for sure. My niece goes to HSPVA, and it is like the 60s all over again. She is almost feeling guilty about being anglo, not just seeing herself as another in the teeming pond of humanity.
She is being taught somewhere (NOT at home) the Christians and Christianity are wrong. She is glad to tell me that she can't stand Christians. Her reasoning? "Because they want to take over everything".
Hmm.... inquiring minds, you know....
OK, have they made some bold business moves to take over oil, auto, steel, electronics, banking or the internet?
Well no, she said, none come to mind.
So, any hard core members of Christian orthodoxy (you know, the kind that put murderers, thieves and adulterer to death) take over a state government? Any multinational, multicultural armies formed by the Christians to threaten, terrorize or murder in ANY country, state, or individual that doesn't believe in Jesus? (I am thinking of The Crusades in my mind.)
Well no, she didn't mean that.
Have you or your friends been arrested or disciplined in any way for speaking out against the Christians? Have any Christians, even a militant sect carried out any type of activities that harmed you or your friends in any way?
(anyone with teenagers in their life picture the eye rolling of a teenage girl here) NOOO.... they haven't done anything to me or my friends and they aren't trying to take over the world.
Well, you know that begged the question to be asked. "So why do you hate them so much?"
Answer: Their attitude. (This was never clearly defined, but in her mind it was a real thing). And the fact that the literati of the school informed them that the use of God in the Pledge of Allegiance could be unconstitutional. And, she argued, it was shameful that as American we are so uneducated, unaware of other cultures and so arrogant that we believe that a nation could be formed under God. What if there is no God? What if there is Buddha (or any other entity) and no God?
She says "under God" but only under protest. She is too mindful of the rights and feelings of others and waaay too intellectually aware to fall into the trap of that simple statement.
But she gushes on and on about many other religions, other philosphies, and is in wonder and awe at their rites, customs and tenets. She is proud to tell me that should all embrace other religions and be tolerant of what our uneducated minds see and idiosyncrasies. She is very proud of her religious awareness, and her tolerance of religions.
So I asked her why she didn't feel that way about the Christians. Well, no real answer except to tell me "it's different". I asked her if that with her tremendous tolerance of other religions and their rites and customs if she couldn't cut the Christians a break on The Pledge. Nope, she said. Hmmm.... so much for religious tolerance.
She doesn't quite have angst about being anglo, but she kind of wishes she wasn't. She loves the Asian culture and religions, same with the Indian culture and religion, and there is another that she is currently infatuated with as well. She feel like their culture is special, and just being a plain old anglo Christian is bad. Someway, we were left behind.
I know that to be true. Religious symbols are not tolerated. In fact, they just recently went to uniforms at HSPVA so they can kind of have that socialistic feel that there aren't even any class differences.
You know, that bugs the crap out of me. Society is about learning from each other, and tolerance of one another. Even if you don't believe in God, those are some pretty damn good rules to live by and great instruction on how to conduct one's self.
If Anthony Robbins had written them, they would be everywhere like "Chicken Soup For the Soul".
You know, Texas is supposed to be so backwards, old fashioned, and right wing. I would propose that we could do any state full of lefties proud with out progressive legislation.
In the holiest of shrines in Texas, also known as The High School Football Stadium, students, teachers, players, coaches, fans... NO ONE can say the Lord's prayer unless to themselves. We have been praying those boys don't get hurt on the field ever since I can remember, but no more in San Antonio. I believe that this is the law in Texas now, although it is enforced much less in the smaller towns.
But when a group of students in San Antonio decided to exercise their religious freedom (about 1,000) of them at a football game and say the Lords' Prayer out loud before the game, they were made to stop by ushers and security. The ones that didn't stop were ushered out.
So much for religious tolerance, or even tolerance of others, eh? How hard would it have been for others to stand quietly for a minute and let the folks pray for the safety of their kids to a Christian God? I mean really, Christianity is still the predominate/preferred religion of most of the US, so trying to hide it, ban it, or silence it seems to be a wrong against the will of at least some of the people.
How hard would it be for my niece to skip that one sentence in The Pledge and allow those that believe in God to say so?
I would at least think that these grand intellectual minds that debate the validity and place of Christianity in today's world would try to teach some tolerance for one another. I'm not holding my breath, though. Christianity seems to be quite at odds with the intellectual crowd at this time. I have even heard it debated on NPR as to whether it is actually a religion or maybe a cult.
Sigh.
Robert
One major problem: the 10 Commandments are the basis for western society today. You're in a world of trouble if you go into a courtroom and find something different from the moral and legal and ethical code you grew up with. That code involves the 10 Commandments, whether you are Christian or not. Think about the courts we know of that do not subscribe to the Judeo-Christian moral and ethical codes and the laws that have come about because of them. Do you relaly think you'll get a better deal in a Muslim court with some words of Mohammed on the wall-- or not on the wall, but reverberating through the heads of the other participants? Would you care to be tried in China where there is no code of any kind except what the current leaders say?
I am the last person to want to force Christianity or Judaism down anyone's throat, but the solid fact is those two religions form the basis for much of what we call society today. The 10 Commandants might be an indication of the fairness of attitude you can expect in that particular courtroom. Or it may just be a decoration.
This is a consequence of a youth that has had a lot handed over on a silver platter and gets immediate gratification.
Like CitiBank and Merrill Lynch? I'm waiting for someone to hide 20 or 30 billion in the "economic stimulus" package to bail out these two greed-mongers. But that's just the cynic in me.
- Dave in Houston
----- Original Message ----- From: "Leon"
Why?
The bible is a printed book. Putting your hand on it is no different that swearing on last month's issue of Popular Woodworking (keeping on topic).
If you believe in the words of the bible, you don't need it to swear to and actually tell the truth. If you don't believe in the words of the bible, laws at they are written, and have already committed a crime, putting your hand on a book is not going to increase your morals and make you be honest. The bible is a symbol, not a truth machine.
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote \
IIRC, that is indeed why the word "affirmation" was added to the phrase "oath or affirmation", to insure the secular nature of the process.
... but then it's been a long time since my college days.
The person who refuses to say the words because of their moral beliefs is actually truer and of higher moral character than the one who says it to get along with the majority rule and rescinds it mentally later.
As a juror I would place more credence in the testimony of former than the later (if I was aware of their deception).
By the way, the last time I was a juror (5 years ago-ish) the oath went as follows (in Oregon): "Please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you will give here today will be the truth under penalty of perjury?"
Simply because it is symbolic and a gesture that that person agrees in front of every one that he will tell the truth. It guarantees nothing but like the lottery, you can't win if you don't play. I don't play the lottery but some people believe they will win. Not totally unlike giving some one your word. It is more about the higher standard of morals that the Bible represents.
I want a jury of my peers! All agnostics!
Too many religious people think it's their right to force their moral code on others.
Then you have my sympathy :-).
The kiddos are being taught that claptrap by their teachers and professors that are in their 30s, 40s, and 50s. Certainly the chatterboxes debating Christianity's actual definition were in their
50s and 60s.Wait... we could be about the same folks. Same crap, different day kinda thing.
Robert Robert
For your next talk you may want to address the concept of "ethnic self-loathing". My observation is that it can be pretty much independent of ethnicity.
How does a Bible represent a higher standard of morals, and higher than what?
People who draw moral guidance from the Bible do so by careful selection. The fact that so many people do, skipping over the genocide and so forth is quite encouraging. It shows that most people are fundamentally good by nature.
For a jury of peers you need to be tried in England. On this side of the pond there is no dichotomy between lords and commoners.
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