Some people are really just plain stupid

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It uses a "proximity sensor". It's not 1 sec after you touch the blade. It's one second after you "are too close" to the blade.
Understood but you may be moving toward the blade faster than the cautious pace used in the video.
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You can very easily move several feet in one second. If the proximity sensor was set so as to keep you far enough away from the blade that you couldn't get to it before it stops, you couldn't use the saw. Tablesaw accidents are over, the damage is done, in milliseconds.
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Are you really making those types of rapid movements around your TS? Several feet in a sec? Are you practicing your TaeKwondo or are you ripping a board? When do you ever move several feet per sec at the TS? Around most TS accidents a gradual "push" into the blade?
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wrote:

Are you really making those types of rapid movements around your TS?
Not intentionaly.
Several feet in a sec? Are you practicing your TaeKwondo or are you ripping a board? When do you ever move several feet per sec at the TS? Around most TS accidents a gradual "push" into the blade?
The more likely cause of someone contacting the blade would be a slip or kickback. This stuff happens fast, to fast for a one second delay to be of any use. In the case of brain fade, it might do some good.
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If that's the speed that most TS accidents occur than we should give sawstop grief for pushing that hotdog so slow into the blade in their demos. I would like to see the effect of the hotdog being pushed "several feet/sec" into the blade. Do you think it would still only make a small nick in the dog?
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On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 01:29:10 -0800 (PST), GarageWoodworks

I agree with you, but his assertion of several feet a second is not a realistic feed rate. Sure one can trip and fall into the blade, but that happening is not the common feed rate that one uses. Several inches per second, maybe a foot a second, (depending on wood type and thickness) would seem more realistic to me and I'd suggest something similar to that sounds better as the standard for the hotdog test.
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The feed rate in the hot dog demo video looks pretty realistic to me.
Just one man's opinion.

Do the math. According to SawStop, the brake fires in less than 1 millisecond, and the blade comes to a complete stop in 5 milliseconds.
If you're feeding your hand into the blade at, say, 2 feet/sec -- which is a damn fast feed rate -- in 5ms, it moves all of one eighth of an inch before the blade comes to a complete stop. That's a lot more than a nick, obviously, but it's nowhere near an amputation, either.
And that assumes that your hand is in continuous contact with the blade the entire time -- which it won't be.
Watching the slow-motion video on their site showing Steve Gass's finger touching the blade, it's obvious that the blade drops out of contact with the finger long before it stops spinning. The blade begins to drop after apparently only two or three teeth's worth of rotation. At 5000 rpm (as noted in one video), with a 40-tooth blade, three teeth of rotation is less than *one* millisecond. And in that length of time, moving your hand into the blade at 2 fps, you move only 0.02". That *is* just a nick.
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wrote:

Actually, it would make surprisingly little difference in the size of the nick although there could be some. There is only so much work you can do in 5ms. IOW, there is no residual 'wind-down' during which time any further cutting can take place. When that blade is gone out of the path, it is gone. The cutting path recedes backwards and downwards at that speed, you'd have to catch the blade on the way down. SawStop's effectiveness isn't so much in the stopping of the blade as it is in the disappearing act.
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Well, that's why I asked about that a few days ago. Imagine, if you will, though the unlikely event of getting a glove or some string caught in the blade. If your hand gets pulled in to the blade because of that, stopping the blade is the only way to keep someone safer. (If the blade disappears, your hand is going to slam on the cast iron top. If you get cut and then stuck, you could conceivably die. A regular saw might do the same thing, though.)
Obviously, both mechanisms are there for a reason, and perform different vital functions in making the saw stop effective.
Puckdropper
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"Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message

Yeah, think about what your are saying here. Unless your glove is made out of a substance that will not cut a glove is not going to be pulled into a spinning blade. Wood being harder to cut than a cloth material or leather does not get pulled into the spinning blade, a glove will not either.
This was discussed several years ago and I decided to do the experiment and sacrifice a leather/canvas glove. I pushed both the leather and cloth sections of the glove into the spinning blade. The blade simply cut the glove, actually left a kerf but did not in any way pull or change the direction of the glove.
That said I still would not recommend using a glove around any shop machinery. The glove could be pulled into a drill bit on a drill press or pulled in to the work on a lathe to name a few. Around a TS the loose parts could touch the blade and if you were not expecting that to happen you may be startled and react with a movement towards the blade.
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"Leon" wrote

Agreed.
Just a note about gloves. I never wear then around machinery. Or long sleeves either. I roll them up.
I was working yesterday driving a bunch of lag screws. It was cold so I wore gloves. Those gloves got caught in that socket wrench again and again. If this can hapen with a hand operated socket wrench, just imagine what can happen with a sharp, machine driven bit. Like my old shop teacher used to say. Don't feed the machine.
I am a safety freak. I used to get laughed at a lot when younger. But I have all my fingers, toes, eyes, etc.
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On Jan 10, 12:30 pm, "Lee Michaels"

I am not as safe as I could be, but a helluva lot more safe than most of my compatriots. I think for some of them cheating the reaper or possible injury is all they get for excitement at middle age.
I have been in the trades for a little over 35 years. Ten fingers, ten toes, both eyes, as well. Some of them even work to this day. Just at differing levels than in previous years.
Robert
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On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 13:30:06 -0500, "Lee Michaels"

Because an article of clothing gets caught in the gears of a dull instrument doesn't mean that it will in a sharp, powerful, saw. Sure, if it *does* get caught, mayhem will follow, but it doesn't follow that it will get caught.
A dull tool is a dangerous tool.

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I had some sort of string in mind while typing the post, just added glove as a source of the string. Chances are excellent that the glove or string would be simply cut or snapped, but having both mechanisms ensures safety if the unusual happens.

I remember that post. The glove pulled in to saw thing might be a specific pair of gloves (like chain saw) under specific sawing conditions. IOW, impossible to disprove.

I agree with that, definately. A glove usually reduces the "feel" of something, so you don't get as early of warning that something's going bad.
It'd be difficult data to collect, but I'm still wondering if the disappearing blade would be effective enough to prevent most injuries. Rather than damaging blade and having a one-time-use-only cartridge, maybe a reloadable charge could be set and the cartridge reused.
Puckdropper
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<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

Dunno how well that would work in practice. SawStop uses the energy contained in the spinning blade (angular momentum) to provide the force that drops it below the table. I have to think that any mechanism that simply drops the blade, while allowing it to continue to spin, isn't going to react anywhere nearly as quickly as SawStop's -- maybe not quickly enough to do any good.
Not saying it won't/can't work... just saying, mark me down as skeptical.
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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote in Puckdropper

This sounds like a job for an engineer! Just how fast does gun powder react any way? The mechanism would detect the impact, the firing pin would release (it arms when the saw is turned on), and pow the blade is dropped in to the cartridge.
Naturally, the forces involved would be extreme. Probably about as much as the saw stop generates now, but with the added requirement that the cartridge must be reusable and blade safe.
Puckdropper
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"Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message
snip

LOL, well just so happens that I have been cut with a chainsaw also,,,, through the same type pair of gloves. Still have the scar on the top of my finger. About 30 years ago a freind and I were out in the woods cutting up fire wood. Just finished cutting a log that I had been holding up for him to cut, the saw was idling and I dropped the log and swung my hand up. My finger grazed the end of the bar. I felt it and looked down at the glove and saw a gash. Pulling the glove off indicated a cut in my finger about 1 inch long

Exactly!
From experience I can tell you that replacing a premium quality blade and cartridge is not a financial burden at all. Because there are few to no false triggers except for a few isolated cases you can rest assured that if the trigger is set off you have actually saved yourself thousands of dollars and a lot if pain. Been there done that. When I first heard about this saw about 10 years ago I was quick to inquire as to whether the saw would trigger if the blade was still spinning after the saw was turned off. It indeed does. IMHO paying a couple hundred dollars to replace a cartridge and blade may give you a bit more incentive to review what happened. If there is not some kind of penalty you may become more careless on some one elses saw and pay the bigger price.
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wrote:

If that's the speed that most TS accidents occur than we should give sawstop grief for pushing that hotdog so slow into the blade in their demos. I would like to see the effect of the hotdog being pushed "several feet/sec" into the blade. Do you think it would still only make a small nick in the dog?
I'd expect it to make a fair gash but would not amputate anything.
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CW wrote:

Well that's the point--you aren't intentionally sticking your finger in the blade either. The protective systems are there for when something that you did _not_ intend happens.

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Are you really making those types of rapid movements around your TS? Several feet in a sec? Are you practicing your TaeKwondo or are you ripping a board? When do you ever move several feet per sec at the TS? Around most TS accidents a gradual "push" into the blade?
You are only condisering the type accidents that you are warned about. There are plenty of accidents that happen when the unexpected happens. Say a bee comes in and lands on your hand closest to the blade..... Not likely but I have had that happen. Stay with woodworking long enough and you will come to realize that just being careful is not enough. If a knot explodes and you jump. You never know.
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