Re: RFD: rec.woodworking.moderated moderated

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Well there is not one FAQ that says foolish as I recall, however there are two FAQs that discuss moderated groups.
http://www.swcp.com/~dmckeon/mod-faq.html
http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/mod-pitfalls.html
also in my sig is a link to n.g FAQ, that points to creation process in the big-8
Hopes this helps some.
--
news:alt.pagan FAQ at http://www.dmcom.net/bard/altpag.txt
news:alt.religion.wicca FAQ at http://www.dmcom.net/bard/arwfaq2.txt
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--snip--
Just to be OT: Relax, breathe, and read this:
Jewish Zen ----------
Be here now. Be someplace else later. Is that so complicated, already?
Wherever you go, there you are. Your luggage, another story.
Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkes!
Be patient and achieve all things. Be impatient and achieve all things faster.
There is no escaping karma. In a previous life, you never called, you never wrote, you never visited. And whose fault was that?
The Buddha taught that one should practice loving kindness to all sentient beings. Still, would it kill you to find a nice sentient being who happens to be Jewish?
Let your mind be as a floating cloud. Let your stillness be as the wooded glen. And sit up straight. You'll never meet the Buddha with such round shoulders!
To practice Zen and the art of Jewish motorcycle maintenance, do the following: Get rid of the motorcycle. What were you thinking??
Drink tea and nourish life. With the first sip, joy. With the second, satisfaction. With the third, Danish.
If there is no self, whose arthritis is this?
Be aware of your perceptions. Be aware of your body. But not every physical sensation is a symptom of a terminal illness.
To find the Buddha, look within. Deep inside you are ten thousand flowers. Each flower blossoms ten thousand times. Each blossom has ten thousand petals. You might want to see a specialist.
The Tao has no expectations. The Tao demands nothing of others. The Tao does not speak. The Tao does not blame. The Tao does not take sides. The Tao is not Jewish.
Breathe in. Breathe out. Breathe in. Breathe out. Forget this and attaining Enlightenment will be the least of your problems.
--
Guns don't kill people. Rappers do!
-----------------------------------
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<snippage>
Thanks, Larry!
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wrote:

<snip>
Love it!
It's strange, 'though....I never knew before that I'm Jewish.
Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA
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"Guy Macon" <http://www.guymacon.com wrote in message

OK, I'll help. If someone wants to have a moderated woodworking newsgroup,.let them. There are thousands of useless (IMO) groups that I don't participate in. I would not participate in a moderated newsgroup of any subject. Moderation ranks right up there with book burning. I don't like censorship in my conversations.
I'll just continue using rec.woodworking as in the past. Ed snipped-for-privacy@snet.net http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
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For what it's worth I'm not particularly opposed to a moderated woodworking newsgroup, but I wouldn't visit it if it did exist. The reason is I occasionally enjoy the off topic comments (especially Tom Watson's stories for example) and the flame wars can go nicely with lunch too ;) And I'm always looking for a bargain so the occasional FS and FA postings generate a click from me. They're easily ignored if I want to and that's okay too.
I prefer rec.woodworking as is and not a watered down version. So, now that I've blathered on, if you're wanting to know if this is a vote for, against, or an abstain, since there hasn't been much support for one (I wouldn't stand in the way) I'll vote no for now.
Thanks, Mike
Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com wrote in message

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Web forum are not the same as usenet forums. Some folks prefer usenet over web forums from a technical standpoint. The issue at hand is whether an existing topic space, with existing readership, can be made usable (again), not whether it should be moved off usenet. Sometimes, when the readership proves to have too little discipline, moderation is the only solution left. Whether it proves to be a viable solution can only be determined by trying it (starting with whether it can manage to get to a vote).
ru
--
My standard proposals rant:
Quality, usefulness, merit, or non-newsgroups popularity of a topic
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On Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:12:49 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@usask.ca wrote:

At issue here is whether rec.ww is un-usable (now). I suspect the concensus, with a few exceptions will be that it is not un-usable as it currently stands.

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<snip>

Those who find currently unusable now are likely taking a break, and may, or may not, return.
So it goes with most of life's activities. I wish parts of them were more civilized, too, but nobody really wants me to be the moderator for THAT forum.
I don't want the job, either.
Patriarch
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On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 12:55:17 -0700, Mark & Juanita

Sorry I missed the original posting. However, I have major problems with a moderated group. The moderator sits on a very high horse. Having no other choice, I'd rather put up with the B.S. that is easily filtered out as the alternative. A good newsreader allows you to list according to headers in the same thread, so they are all lumped together, and readily deleted.
That said, the OT posters are still the most ignorant people I have ever had the displeasure to meet. They are totally arrogant and self-serving, and common courtesy is not in their vocabulary. There is no need for them to post completely OT, even if labelled as such. They do it, like little children and spammers, simply to show that they can. It shows clearly their mentality. If they had more than one brain cell between them they'd be able to form their own discussion group elsewhere. That done, there'd be a lot more decent people posting relevant topics for discussion, making this newsgroup what it should be; informative about woodworking.
So, no moderation, but those responsible for the OT crap should know that they are seen to be as stupid and ignorant as they make themselves out to be. Now watch for their intelligent replies.
Bill.
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again: This group is sort of like a bunch of people with a common interest sitting around the stove in the feed store. It's not a technical meeting called to address the problem of an unexpected failure in the static test article.
Sure, the conversation may be weighted toward the common interest, but it will deviate in all kinds of directions as a normal part of the ebb and flow of a conversation among friends and the individual thought processes. (That's assuming, of course, that there are "thought" processes. Some of the stuff I've seen makes me less than certain about that.)
That's completely normal, natural, and, IMO, to be desired. There is no need for, nor should there be, an overseer to crack the whip and keep the conversation limited to the "common interest". If that were the case, I think you'd find a lot of empty chairs around the stove. I find myself dropping by the feed store quite frequently. Not necessarily because I need to buy some feed, but just to see what the guys are up to now.
If there happens to be a group of guys over in the corner arguing about politics, religion, what's the best computer OS, or showing off the latest French postcards, it's easy enough to ignore them. And, if there is nobody talking about anything that interests me, I can run on over the bank, take care of business, and drop by again later.
If you want to wall off a separate room and put a guard on the door, go ahead, but I suspect that it's going to be awfully dry, cold, and very boring inside.
Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA
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... snip

Very well said. If this was pro.woodworking I think one could make the argument that all inquiries should be on-topic all the time. Since it is *rec*.woodworking, the wide-ranging ideas and backgrounds of the group form an important part of the group dynamic. After all, this is something we are all doing for fun.
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On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:26:15 -0700, Mark & Juanita

Not a chance. The same reasons would apply.

A good point , but the wrong emphasis. Try rec.*woodworking*. Also "all doing for fun" [which is just fine] should include "fun for all". The objection, mine at least, to OT threads is not so much that they are there, but that they are at a point of taking over completely. That beer-soaked group in the corner gets louder and louder until nobody can hear themselves speak; a subtle, but important difference. Trying to find useful information about actual woodworking becomes a chore, not a pleasant evening's occupation. Nobody complains when sent to a site that holds useful information, and nothing but useful information. They point other people there as well, as a good place to visit. The reason people complain is because there is something to complain about. This becomes not such a good place to visit, so a whole lot of potentially good contributors, who simply don't want to wade through the crap, are lost in the shuffle.
Bill.
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... snip

This issue has been discussed numerous times and I know that neither of us is going to convince the other, however, since I like the analogy, there are a few points worth commenting on: It is very easy to shut the door on that boistrous group in the corner (wouldn't necessarily equate them to a beer-soaked group so much as an intensely serious groups of partisans trading barbs, but that's a different analogy). A threaded newsreader (I believe outlook and know that Agent and Gravity are threaded) doesn't really make closing the door that hard, and frankly doesn't make that group in that room all that boistrous. A simple glance at a topic line such as "Is lying about the reason for a war an impeachable offense" does not require a large amount of grey matter rubbing against itself to recognize as off-topic, a single keystroke ("x" in Agent) closes that door and 100 milliseconds later the topic of "Question about a Disston Saw" is seen being discussed in an adjacent area.

As I said, a threaded newsreader takes 1/10 of a second to mark an entire OT thread as read with no more than a glance at the thread's subject line. A brief look at the subject lines in my newsreader this evening reveals On-topic threads: 37 Off-topic threads: 4 This hardly seems a difficult chore. More of a chore is separating through the on-topic posts to detemine which are of interest. Again, same criteria applies, not interested in "cordless drill/driver"? A simple "x" and it doesn't matter if 1 or 100 postings have occured to that thread, I only see one line and move on to the next topic.

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I agree that the OTs can be tiresome at times (they are frequently entertaining too!). On the other hand, moderated groups tend to be stale and die an early death. I kinda like the picture of a bunch of old codgers (and Mary Schafer, Juanita too) sitting around the stove at the old hardware store. Things aren't always on topic or interesting for everyone, but if you listen, you will get something out of it.
Grant
Bill Rogers wrote:

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On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:26:15 -0700, Mark & Juanita

FWIW, there's a rash of "RFD yada.yada moderated" this week. I've seen nearly identcial threads with similar headers in a bunch of different newsgroups.
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On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:44:04 GMT, "U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles" <"Charles

Just out of curiosity, are the moderators the same?
/end hint of agenda
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I only glanced after the first two, but they seemed more than a little similar.
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snipped-for-privacy@usask.ca wrote in

You have slightly jumped the gun here, ru. The question of whether the existing topic space is unusable has not been determined (and I would say the evidence is that the current group is very usable, hence the trend to oppose creating a .mod group).
John
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Ultimately, that is what this proposal would determine if it is followed through. If there are enough people that vote for it's creation, then that would indicate that enough people think the existing group is not usable and that the proposed group should be created. Basically, that's what matters most, barring moderation issues. So in some sense, whether the existing group is considered usable or not by a majority is irrelevant.
It doesn't hurt to have an idea of what the consensus is beforehand, but generally that's to gauge what to write in the proposal rather than if the proposal should go forward. In the face of great opposition, yes, a proponent may consider withdrawing. But I don't consider lack of interest or lack of need to be adequate reasons to oppose a proposal... lack of YES votes should take care of that. When I say opposition, I mean views along the lines of the proposed group adversely affecting the readership of the proposed group because of the way the proposal is composed, or will adversely affect existing groups. Generally, if there is a segment of usenet readers that want a group to read about a topic with more focus or specialization, then opposers should seriously consider if they are trying to prevent others from creating a group of their own, and why. The converse is also true, though; supporters should also seriously consider if they are trying to help others get their group or help themselves get their group (the former isn't really appropriate, while the latter is), and why.
Having said all that, I'm waiting to hear from the proponents about the moderation issues, because I think that will be their stumbling block.
ru
--
My standard proposals rant:
Quality, usefulness, merit, or non-newsgroups popularity of a topic
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