OT: Why General Motors is doomed

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You might as well shut up and go away. You lost all credibility with that statement.
(probably

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I'm just glad that all the folks who claimed the automobile was a passing fancy turned out to be right...god only knows how those idiots like Daimler and Diesel and Ford et al thought that they could build and sell cars with no existing infrastructure in place...
It's almost a miracle that things like roads and the automotive fuel industry sprung up overnight to serve the needs of the people building the cars, we all know that could never happen again.
Seriously, you guys who continually bash ideas like alternatively fueled vehicles are fun to read, it's like a car crash, you know you shouldn't but you have to look.
It's a wonder that anything in the way of transportation or power production and transmission or the interstate highway system, etc.ever got built at all given the amount of ignorant pessimism that one reads on the internet.
As for thinking and buying with one's penis, how else does one explain the Hummer...? If that's not genital compensation, I don't know what is.
John E.

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John Emmons wrote:

It's their way of attempting to maintain the status quo, without ever having to think.
I don't like the status quo - I know we can do a lot better.
Mike
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Have you seen the new "Reclaim your manhood" commercial for the H-3. I didn't think anyone would stoop that low. I've often said the H-2 owners must have the smallest weenies of all men.
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wrote in message

And the one with the mom, who wimps out, and then buys one herself? ;-)
Not going THERE!
Patriarch
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" John"

Certainly some buyers think of their machismo when buying however, an overwhelming number of SUV buyers are housewives/working mothers that need to shuttle car loads of kids and gear around. A Prius is simply not up to the task.
As for your attitude regarding HP, it is typical of a left wing environmentalist. The arrogant position that your way of thinking is the only correct one and all others must fall in line - or what - they are stupid, numbskulls that must be taught a lesson? I happen to believe that rational people, given good information, will generally make good choices.
I also find it ironic that the green people are quietly backing away from their historically negative nuclear stance. Only now discovering that last 20+ years for coal/oil/gas burning power plants spew the dreaded C02 gas into our planet's atmosphere. (Forgetting the fact that the human population growth lines up almost exactly with C02 emissions.)
Mike - don't get me wrong, if you want to drive a Civic Hybrid, fine - just come by sometime and I'll be happy to introduce you to one of my salespeople. We also have the Chevrolet Hybrid pickup if you what to protect your green image while still being able to stand and pee.
Dave
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Teamcasa wrote:

I see far more SUVs filled with precisely _one_ driver commuting in overloaded highways than SUVs filled with kids.
When I played soccer, we walked or cycled to the field and if it wasn't a home game, the team rented a school bus. The SUV is usually an excuse for a solution looking for a problem. People bought them because they were a fad, not because they were needed. Sales are dropping now because the fad is fading. The almost-a-wagon looks like it may be the new fad (e.g. Toyota Matrix)

I see vehicles that weigh twice what my car does and have three times the rated HP. They are crawling down the highway entrance ramps and trying to enter traffic at 2/3 highway speed. Those same drivers tell me they need all that horsepower. What they need is to learn how to drive.
Most drivers use HP because they don't know how to handle their car. The little sports cars of the '50s could out handle many modern overpowered cars and those little cars had a fraction of the power that most drivers would accept today.
Americans judge the car by stomping on the gas pedal and expecting it to go woosh. That's hardly a reasonable estimation of a car.

And transportation engineering studies have shown the exact opposite.
Major study on fuel economy attitudes in the '70s oil crisis - one question was:
"Have you installed a thermidor in your car to improve fuel economy?"
Approximately 75% of respondents said yes. These are the smart, rational drivers you sell cars to.
Mike
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Mike, Facts please - What study(s)?
No one is going to stop or criticize you from riding a bike or walking in order to save mankind. That's your right. I object however, when your belief system begins to interfere with my desire to drive or sell whatever I want. You and Ed Begley can drive your EV1's and Prius's all you want, your free to protest the nuclear plants, (that really helped BTW) and tear down the hydroplants. Oil is here, will stay a major source of power for several more generations. If the green people had a lick of sense, they would be devoting their resources into ways to generate electricity (massive amounts) without using fossil fuels. They would buy products made locally, not from places that have to ship them across the ocean in fuel guzzling ships. They would only use natural fibers (cotton - animal fur) not synthetic ones made from petroleum.
The hypocrisy and self aggrandizement is amazing.
BTW the (few) sportscars made in the 50's are by today's standards, junk. They were polluting machines and handled terribly, but their power to weight ratio was pretty good. However, it would be nice to have my old 58' vette back.
I'll just settle for my Chevrolet diesel crewcab dually 4x6.
Dave
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Oil is here, will stay a major source of power for several

A couple of months ago a spokesman for Exxon was on a local talk show and indicated that with only todays technology that we have only used 20% of the worlds oil supply. Yesterday the news on NBC indicated that Shale Oil in Colorado can out produce Saudia Arabia and Iran combined and with oil selling for $70 per barrel it would be just as economical to remove the oil from the shale.
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There was a study hanging around in the early 80's that showed that the gas company in Utah could economically produce natural gas from the Utah oil shale, vs $25 bbl oil. The chose not to, figuring that they would end up having to sell it at regulated gas prices. The risk factors were too large, and they had most of the natural gas they expected to need from Wyoming...
There are always alternatives. Some of them take more courage and planning, but there are alternatives.
Patriarch
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Teamcasa wrote:

If I can find my notes from university over 30 years ago, I'll dig them out. Don't hold your breath.

If you're wasting resources that I think are rightly to be available to my descendants, I feel I have a legitimate reason to interfere. The implicit future value of oil is $0.00 according to the wasteful lifestyles of current consumers. Some of us know that that valuation is wrong.

What a load of BS. I have not said to stop using oil. I have been pointing out that you don't have to _waste_ so much oil. The technologies available today can significantly reduce consumption. If you want to live in the past with obsolete technologies, that's your problem. Some of us would like to see technology used to improve things. Hybrid technology is a good stopgap measure for the next several decades until some more advanced technologies are available. E.g. if the dream of clean fusion reactor power ever stops being fifty years in the future, then all-electric vehicles may be a good option.
You seem to think that waste=freedom. Well, waste=waste and with the US using far more energy than it can produce domestically, freedom is threatened by being dependent on foreign resources. How many of your children are you prepared to send to die in foreign wars to maintain a wasteful lifestyle?
Mike
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Michael Daly wrote:

So it is your belief that there is enough oil to last forever if only we would "economize"?

The only way that there will be oil available for your descendants, say, 500,000 years from now will be if we stop using it altogether.

Well, if you think that there is a technology that will improve things you are welcome to bring it to market and see if the body politic agrees with your assessment.

Not this crap again.
<plonk>
--
--John
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wrote:

... and those notes (taken in what, the '70's?) weren't dictated by a professor with a particular viewpoint or agenda, were they?

There you have it folks. "What's mine is mine and my descendants, what's yours is negotiable and subject to my judgment of suitability for your application relative to how it is perceived to possibly affect me or my descendants in the future based upon my pre-conceived notions." Lovely viewpoint that.

I don't think anyone here is saying that the implementation of technologies that truly save costs are a bad idea. But, those technologies need to compete in the market, not be forced upon people by the force of law because of somebody's idea of "public good" wrapped in junk science.

Correction, "using far more energy than it is willing to allow to be produced domestically". The environmentalists in this country haven't found an energy project or energy producing scheme that they don't hate and will fight with every fiber in their being from being developed. Examples abound, shale oil in Colorado, coal, oil fields in Alaska, wind farms in California, wind farms off the east coast, solar collection arrays (because they shade the natural beauty of the desert upon which they are erected), natural gas fields, nuclear power plants, hydroelectric dams. You name it, an environmental group has opposed it, taken it to court and fought to assure that the development is stopped or made to be too costly to be economically feasible.

There is ample energy here if we have the will to develop it wisely without the hysteria that *any* energy development is *bad* energy development.
BTW, who gets to judge wasteful lifestyle? You? Who gets to judge your lifestyle? How about if we get someone from say Vietnam, China, or North Korea to assess your "wasteful" lifestyle and impose their idea of "frugal" upon your living habits? One person's "wasteful" may be another person's "time-efficient utilization of available resources". I would prefer that decision be made by the person most closely involved in the process -- the person performing those actions.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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People bought them because they were a fad, not because

Where do you live??? IN Houston the SUV is alive and well and had been since long before they were called SUV's, I'll admit that sales are slowing but that is because of the gas prices in the last year.
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Want to see the SUV (AKA: Gussied Up Pick'em Up Truck) go away, bring on $10/gallon gasoline.
As always, follow the money.
Lew
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Lew Hodgett wrote:

When gasoline was 25 cents a gallon they said that about 2 dollars a gallon.
People will find ways to pay for what they want.
--
--John
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Actually when gasoline was 25 cents a gallon no one dreamed gas prices would ever raise to as much as 50 cents per gallon. But like you said, we all adjust.
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On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 03:38:21 GMT, "Leon"

My wife has a business need for a truck and we went shopping last weekend looking for a "fire sale deal". They are not to be had. These guys are only knocking a grand or two off the sticker on a $25,000 pickup truck. I think the fad is alive and well.
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A hint here, don't go looking for a deal, get the dealer cost and then go negotiate. Let them know that you have dealer invoice prices.
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On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:04:19 GMT, "Leon"

"dealer Invoice" really doesn't mean much more than the sticker price. There are other incentives, rebates and bonus money kicked back to the dealer that does not show up on the invoice price. The bottom line is still going to be what they will actually let you out the door with. I agree it is nice to know what the internet says the vehicle should cost but that is not necessarily going to be the best you can do. I found out there was an extra $1000 dealer bonus out there (Ford trucks) that does not show up on the "invoice" price. Getting the dealer to actually take this out of his pocket and puit it in yours may be hard to do.
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