OT: no delivery, claimed lost (ebay)

[Leuf]

Proof of shipping would not be enough for him, he's got to have proof of *delivery* or the buyer wins.

-Leuf

[Leon]

Not if the sale was a scam.

[JimR]

WARNING -- if you contest a charge with your credit card company --

-- E-Bay will block you from any further access to the E-Bay site, you will not be able to buy/sell on E-Bay, and you will not be able to leave a negative feedback to warn others of the seller's problems.

E-Bays rules specifically state that buyers ARE NOT ALLOWED to contest credit card purchases. (FYI, this E-Bay policy is a violation of credit card companies' card use policies.)

This is one of several ways in which E-Bay makes it difficult to leave negative feedbacks -- presumably because negatives also make E-Bay look bad. One result -- don't give too much credence to a low number of negatives --

[John]

'Nuff said.

If you paid for insurance then it is the seller's responsibility to deliver proof of it to you in case the item gets lost so that you can recover the value of the purchase from the shipper, and apparently the cost of shipping from the seller as well. Things do get lost, stolen, misdelivered or very significantly delayed on occasion through no fault of either the seller or the buyer. It would appear solely from your description that you do not have sufficient evidence to convict the seller of fraud.

If for some reason the seller did not in fact obtain the insurance on the parcel when it was sent then without doubt it is the seller's responsibility to make good for the loss. IF the seller has tried to nickel-and-dime you on an insurance fee then that is a calculated risk that the seller has undertaken for his own benefit, in the likelihood that most packages do not in fact get lost. No harm done PROVIDED that the seller honestly admits having done so and makes you whole again.

Perhaps you are dealing with an inexperienced businessperson on the seller's end, one who, if he/she were to continue to displease customers such as yourself might not last long in a commercial enterprise.

J.

Enoch Root wrote:

[todd]

If you purchase insurance, tracking is included de facto, IIRC.

todd

[Robert Bonomi]

That offers you some other options --

Tell the seller either: 1) he makes good on the "insurance" you paid him for -or- 2) you file a _criminal_complaint_ against him with the USPS for 'mail fraud'.

if/when you file with the USPS, be sure to include the fact you paid the seller for insurance against loss/damage and he has failed to provide the goods *or* the insurance coverage. That's *two* fraud counts, if it comes to that.

[Larry Jaques]

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 11:05:07 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm, Enoch Root quickly quoth:

Consensus on the WRECK? Bwahahahahahaha!

If you asked for insurance/tracking and he wouldn't provide it, AND you didn't receive the package, I would definitely take it through eBay arbitration. Make sure the offer to refund shipping is included in your claim. It's showing that the shipper is willing to negotiate and/or is accerpting blame. Include email text of your request for tracking and his refusal. Give the arbitrators all the ducks in a row to help them make a clear decision in your direction.

After that decision comes through, you can decide how you'll deal with the feedback issue.

--- Annoy a politician: Be trustworthy, faithful, and honest! ---

Comprehensive Website Development

[Brooks Moses]

Yeah, I'm with everyone else on this. If there weren't any insurance mentioned, then it's a tough call, and I'd say it the loss was probably yours to eat. On the other hand, with the promise of insurance, I think the seller needs to either reimburse _all_ your money or provide you with the means to make an insurance claim against the shipper.

If the seller does not provide you that information, then they are quite simply not providing you with the stated goods, as insurance is irrelevant without the information to claim it.

- Brooks

[Enoch Root]

Now I think on't, that is pretty damn silly.

er

[Enoch Root]

That's what I thought (about USPS). Damn strange. I'm betting the "insurance" I bought (for him/her) is pocketed.

er

[todd]

I recall reading feedback on a seller who must have had a large volume of sales. Several people beefed that he offered shipping insurance, but the shipments arrived without the insurance sticker from the shipping company. The seller's explanation was that he never said he provided insurance from the shipping company and was instead "self-insuring" the shipments. I'm not suggesting that happened in this case, but this just reminded me of that.

The only insurance issue I had was when I was selling my wife's collection of porcelain angel figurines. I definitely required shipping on those and of the 30 or 40 that I shipped, one arrived damaged. The buyer took it to the post office, who agreed that it had been packed appropriately. I sent him the insurance info and he took care of the rest.

I've never been involved in a dispute on an eBay transaction. I'm interested to hear about your experience in getting eBay to honor their commitment to protect buyers.

todd

[Mcfly]

I have a little experience with ebay/paypal disputes, but not in the last 6 months, so I don't know what policy changes might have happened since then. The last time I disputed, it was OK to file a chargeback with your credit card company as long as you went through the ebay/paypal dispute process first. Anyway, here is some input:

- It is perfectly valid for the seller to self-insure. Just because they charged an insurance fee doesn't mean they have to use a 3rd-party to insure.

- DON'T leave negative feedback until the issue is resolved. Since you paid by check, it will be difficult enough to get your money back. Once you leave negative feedback, you've greatly decreased the sellers incentive to work with you.

- I know this doesn't help you now, but in the future, ALWAYS pay by credit card for amounts you're not willing to lose. This gives you the last resort of filing a chargeback with your credit card company. I've had to do it for an ebay purchase, and it works (and I'm still able to use ebay and paypal).

[Mike Berger]

[Mike Berger]

[Brooks Moses]

I suspect this is eBay policy only for credit card payments that go through PayPal, not ones that go directly to the seller. (Remember that eBay owns PayPal now, so that gets all lumped together.)

That one sort of makes sense, because when the credit card payment goes through PayPal and you then contest the charge, PayPal has already paid the seller and if the credit card company doesn't pay them, they're the ones who get stiffed, not the seller -- even though they delivered exactly what you asked for.

Disclaimer: I haven't actually looked this up.

- Brooks

[DamnYankee]

I wouldn't bother with ebay arbitration. Been there, done that. It don't work even if they do sucker you into paying the $20 bucks for an arbitrator. It still don't work. I had a case against a guy for item that arrived damaged but the box was in perfect shape. He wanted me to damage the box so he could collect the insurance money from UPS. He was a freaking shister and Ebay wouldn't do a thing about it. They won't because he's one of their own.

I agree with the others who said if he can't supply you with a tracking # then hit him with the negative response. Unfortunately, it's about all you can do.

Bryan

Enoch Root wrote:

[JimR]

The ebay website has changed since since I challenged a non-delivered purchase. The web site now in one place does tell members with problems to contact their credit card company, but in another place says that buyers must not interfere with ebay's business.

In my case I ordered an inexpensive product -- $30 -- and paid for it with my AmEx card. The item didn't arrive (although the seller claimed to have shipped it, uninsured) and I informed ebay of the problem. I got one e-mail from the seller, saying that the item had been shipped and they didn't know what to do now, but weren't going to offer a refund. Ebay said there would be a 45 day period for their investigation, but my credit card bill was due within 25 days. When it became obvious that ebay wasn't going to complete anything before my credit card bill came due, I notified AmEx that the item had never been delivered. They removed it from my bill and notified ebay.

Next, I got a tersely worded notice from Ebay that said buyers' terms of reference did not allow challenges to charges made to credit cards, that I was barred from using their site, that if I signed on under a different name they would take further action, and that if I had any further questions I should contact their legal department. This was eBay's reaction to my challenge to an undelivered $30 item. As a result, I couldn't sign on to leave a negative eval, and later I noticed that this seller had very few evals, and no negative ones.

As I read the Ebay User Agreement and Privacy Policy (located at

don't see any specific reference anymore banning challenging credit card charges, but several areas where that policy would be the logical result of an overall policy statement.

Maybe eBay has changed their egregious policy since my problems with it, but I don't find anything on eBay that I can't find elsewhere at comparable prices, so I've never tried to reinitiate an account.

[Mcfly]

There are things you can do. You should go to the ebay Answer Center or Discussion Boards to get much more informed advice. You still have a chance of getting a refund. Have you followed ebays "Item Not Received or Significantly Not as Described Process"? This doesn't cost you anything.

don't leave negative feedback until the issue is resolved or you have just completely given up on getting your money back.

[Mike Berger]

I'm not comfortable with Ebay owning Paypal. It seems like a lot of potential for conflict of interest.

But I think things are different now. At one time credit card charges to Paypal were considered the same as a "cash advance" without the cash advance fee. The credit card companies required me to dispute through Paypal. Over the past couple of years they've treated them more like payments to a store -- each one is a separate charge for merchandise from a different vendor. So I've used the standard dispute procedure.

The credit card companies want you to go through Ebay and Paypal dispute because (a) they don't have to compensate you for anything you get back from those sources first and (b) Ebay requires a 45 day wait, which may take you beyond the credit card dispute deadline.

Brooks Moses wrote:

[Enoch Root]

That's like the nightmare scenario I'd envisioned when I posted my query.

Now I can (at least) put my fears to rest, because the package arrived.

Let me just say... this seller was inaccurate in her emails, and this is what caused me all the worry. It wasn't because I thought she was a liar or anything, it was the inconsistencies between what she reported and what actually happened that led to my worries.

She claimed to have sent it out almost a week before she actually did, apparently preferring to pretend she'd done what she said she would "before my check arrived".

I had also sent an email asking if the check had arrived, long enough after having sent it that it must have gotten there a some days before. No, it hadn't, she said. She later sent an email confirming that it'd arrived that day and she was sending the item the following day (which as I said didn't happen.)

But it arrived, and I gave her a positive since I'm only judging on shipping speed (I probably would've waited this long had she opted to let the check clear first), packaging, and accuracy of the description (including omissions).

She's disorganized, and she wants to hide her little inconsequential faults. Big deal.

er