Do you use any computer based tool for doing project layout?

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I was just thinking about who could possibly be dumber than RoboTwat, and who shows up...
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On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:55:54 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com"

You really like confirming your status as ignorant trailer park trash don't you? I know you can't help playing the simpleton idiot because of your inbreeding, but at least try to make a token effort will you?
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*wiping monitor and keyboard*
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Unfortunately, he *can't* do that, no matter how politely anyone asks.
Explanation -- he's not a 'token' inbred simpleton idiot.
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I would have to concede Keith's expertise on the subject of morons. *NOBODY* has the degree of _first-hand_ experience on the matter that he does.
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On Apr 15, 5:43pm, snipped-for-privacy@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) wrote:

=> one result, zero carry

=> zero

Yes, with the three stooges (Uppity, RoboTwat, and you), I now know a *lot* about morons.

Yes, my first-hand experience in computer architecture sure makes you look like a fool, but the kicker is that you can't read. Uppity and RoboTwat are simply leftist thieves.
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=> zero result, zero carry

(Pretty soon all of us will be labeled stooges by keith... institutions are full of guys(?) like him.)
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om> wrote:

=> zero result, zero carry

No, you're special. Short-bus special.
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Liar. It is *extremely*relevant* when discussing _real_world_ implementations of hardware to do the task.

Something you *obviously* know nothing about.
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On Apr 15, 5:13pm, snipped-for-privacy@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) wrote:

Moron. Not when that wasn't the issue at hand. Of course you can always bring a strawman to any argument if you think it makes you look smart. It doesn't.

Enough.
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And, you sir, "don't know what you don't know."
That chip does -not- do *actual* subtraction. The spec sheet makes that fact abundantly clear (expressly stated in the 2nd para. of the description). That chip is an 'adder' with added logic to 'invert' one of the inputs, so that it can _simulate_ subtraction (by internal 'complement and add').

And _that_ is what the MC10H180, in fact, does.

Demonstrating, yet again, what you "don't know you don't know" about digital logic circuit design.
They are _not_ 'the same operations'. They cannot be implemented with the same logic. They cannot even be implemented with the same number of gates.
The -results- of the operations are "mathematically equivalent", but they are *NOT* the same operations. "In theory", this is a difference that should make no difference, but "in practice", there _is_ a difference, when you have to implement in the real world.

Useless? Do you know how many *BILLIONS* of dollars of scientific/engineering computers were built using that -exact- logic, over a period of several decades?
Those of us who actually _used_ those kinds of machines had to deal with this "useless" behavior on a day-to-day basis.
Those machines *all* used _NATIVE_SUBTRACTION_, with addition being 'simulated' by 'complement and subtract'.
To be absolutely explicit, on those machines _addition_ was done by running the second operand through an inverter and then feeding that result to the 'native' subtraction circuitry. It was -not- done by disabling inverters in front of a 'native' adder circuit. I'm sure even _you_ can see the stupidity of running a set of (front-end) inverters before a set of (internal to simulated subtraction logic) inverters that fed an 'adder' circuit to generate the result.
Those who claim otherwise are ignorant of the FACTS of computing history.
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On Apr 15, 4:58pm, snipped-for-privacy@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) wrote:

Wrong. Once again, Invert <> Complement. The inverter is used in the Carry/Borrow logic *NOT* as a complement.
BINARY FULL ADDER: __ A --++---------------\\ \ | __ ||XOR|o------Sum B --|--+---\\ \ +-//__/ | | ||XOR|o-+ Ci--|--|--+//__/ | | | | | __ | | | +-| \ | | | |AND)+-+ __ | | +---------+|__/ ++\ \ | | __ |OR|- Carry | +------------+| \ +-/__/ | |AND)+-+ +---------------+|__/
Full Adder
Full Subtractor:
__ Bin -------------------------+-\\ \ __ | ||XOR|------------------ Dif A ---+-------\\ \ +-|-//__/ | ||XOR|-+----+ | __ B ---|--+----//__/ | +--| \ | | | |\ |AND)--+ __ | | +-+| >O---|__/ +-\ \ | | |/ | OR|---------Borrow | | __ +|/__/ | +---------------------| \ | | |\ |AND)--- +---------| >O-----------|__/ |/
They look pretty much alike to me.

=> one result, zero carry

=> zero result, one carry

*VERY* similar. Close enough to be the *SAME LOGIC*

No, there is no difference in the real world.

Absolutely irrelevant.

I *DESIGN* the stuff. Yes, I know what I'm talking about.

What machines? CADET (the subject, BTW) didn't do either, "natively".

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You're probably very good at what you do. Your social skills need work, so you might come across as less of of a dick. You're probably just misunderstood.
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From a socialist thief like you, that's a compliment.
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Get your facts straight. I was an independent small business owner with a staff of 4. It was the third business I built from the ground up and then sold for a nice lump of coin. I now have one business left, my CNC millwork business. I own this business outright. No debt, no bank-loans, just a huge amount of supplier credit and goodwill. I have never collected a dime from any social assistance programs and vote conservative unless there's an asshole like you who's running for a political position under the guise of conservatism. The (small) liberal side of me believes that I should help those less fortunate than I. So you are wrong, wrong, wrong, fuck-face.
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"Robatoy" wrote
Get your facts straight. I was an independent small business owner with a staff of 4. It was the third business I built from the ground up and then sold for a nice lump of coin. I now have one business left, my CNC millwork business. ==================== Congrats on another biz success/transition.
You must be a lousy retiree.
Did you get kicked out of your shop?
Just how is the CNC biz in your neighborhood? Do you see this as a growth biz?
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On Apr 16, 11:13am, "Lee Michaels"

Thank you. I do not know how to to do nothing. I still have my shop and my office. I will be here till the new owners are properly trained and certified, probably till fall. Meanwhile it has become obvious to me that the demand for CNC work is a lot more varied than I had even dreamt possible. From a commemorative plaque in 1-1/2 walnut to 1200 round pvc tags for a cattle farmer. Then a huge 16 x 4 ft carved sign for a marina (pics to follow once a local artist paints it.) and now somebody wants barber-poles of all things. I am learning about different feedrates in different materials (yet to break a bit) the software learning curve is easy initially but pretty steep if you want some really cool stuff. (Vectric Aspire) I will be adding an 'a-axis' spindle/indexer for more fun stuff. In the next 18 months, the last daughter will be off to school, and Angela will be done with her NP. Then we will consolidate everything and build somewhere where I can work with my CNC from home where Ang will hang her shingle as well. Maybe Maritimes, maybe British Columbia. Who knows.
A growth business? Hell yes. The guys at Vectric have done a fantastic job creating the Aspire software making it, in relative terms, a lot easier to create works of art. Even though my cnc is a General, the ShopBot community is just incredible with help for newbs like myself.
I just wish I had done this 10+ years ago.
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"Robatoy" wrote
A growth business? Hell yes. The guys at Vectric have done a fantastic job creating the Aspire software making it, in relative terms, a lot easier to create works of art. Even though my cnc is a General, the ShopBot community is just incredible with help for newbs like myself. == You make a lousy neander.
==I just wish I had done this 10+ years ago. ======== I would guess that the technology, support, CNC machines, etc are much better today than ten years ago. And Morris had not built his machine and begun his CNC subversiveness.
Oh well...., better late than never.
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On 4/16/2010 10:48 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:

8-|
Subversive... moi? <snicker>

True, and I'm wishing I'd learned earlier just how to go about being "subversive"...
...I'm just now starting to have real fun with this stuff:
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/Stirling /
Rob, when/if you tire of the CNC, you're welcome to play along with a really interesting group of "subversives". :)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
  Click to see the full signature.
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