Mac Disaster

[dom]

Diy tools are: Sold mainly through diy outlets Have both brands widely recognised by diy'ers and diy outlets own brands Tend to be loaded with features/gimmicks Put greater emphasis on price than build quality Prioritise price over durability Cordless tools tend to have slow chargers, single batteries and less good cell life

Professional tools are:

*differentiated by manufacturers from their diy ranges* Sold mainly through trade outlets Concentrate on brands widely recognised by professionals Have limited features/gimmicks Put greater emphasis on build quality than price Prioritise durability over price Cordless tools tend to have fast chargers, multiple batteries with very good cell life

Based on those factors, I'd say the 100 quid Sparky impact driver just about makes it to the pro side.

Ryobi OTOH is one of the few companies (possibly the only?) that chooses to blur the diy/pro distinction

I'd also say - generally - that 100 quid is about the absolute max price that the diy will stand.

There are sub 100 quid pro tools - but I tend to notice that when these are sold through diy outlets the retailers choose a price point with a significant gap from their other products - unlike their usual custom of a continuous spectrum in 5 and 10 pound increments.

[:Jerry:]

Different strokes of the saw and all that, DIY is about what the person doing it wants, the above is how *you* see DIY, to me it's doing it *how I want it done* (for example, pipes run were I want them, bends or elbows used not were it's easy or indeed best but were they look 'right'), but for many it *will* be about saving money [1] - if it means spending as much buying the tools as it would to get a 'man in' why bother?!

[1] I don't know who old you are Andy but that is how 'Do It Yourself' started in the UK, as anyone who remembers magazines like 'Practical Householder' (what ever did happen to PH?) in the '60's & '70's will remember, as a necessity rather than a hobby.

[Doctor Drivel]

Kress of Germany is not a wannabee product. If a maker has faith in their product then they will stand by long guarantees. Look at 5 yr guarantees in some auto makers now. No low quality car maker gives 5 year guarantees.

Most don't know that.

It is.

You have yet again lost the plot.

[Doctor Drivel]

Matt, you are mad.

Once again..."Sparky are a big pro brand in Germany and Eastern Europe - very common there."

It isn't. £100 is far too high.

Again you have lost the plot.

[Doctor Drivel]

The £100 is because it is made in Eastern Europe - rates of exchange make it cheap. Sparky is a German company.

They cleverly aim for both markets with the same products. Confusion is that they have not been in the Makita, DeWalt range for years, so image is blurred. The ONE+ range, using the one battery for a whole range of tools, is clearly aimed at the pro market. Feedback from these products is good. They are well priced and good.

I would say way over the top for a DIY product - and £139 is clearly pro. Far, far less than £100 gets suitable DIY tools.

[:Jerry:]

That would be why some (nominally) trade only manufacturers, with their own distribution / sales network, offer a lifetime guarantee then...

[John Rumm]

There are occasions where I have done a job that has required tool purchase - and the total cost was comparable to getting someone else to do it. The difference is, that at the end of the job you get to keep the tool. So the next time it will be cheaper. (of course if there never is a "next time" then you just get some more clutter to store! ;-)

I am sure thinks like home furniture building existed as a hobby before then, although "DIY" obviously did not have the profile it has now. A large part of that is the things we expect from our living spaces has changed dramatically over the years, and hence the range of home improvements that are available and calling for our money has grown enormously.

[Andy Hall]

In the UK market that is exactly what it is. Do you see their product offered with their name by any retailer?

The professional tool marketplace has 1 year guarantees in the main and

3 year (e.g. Bosch and Festool) in order to capture customer details. There is no reason for a manufacturer to go outside this norm unless he wants to establish a market position that he doesn't have. In this case the warranty is from Wickes anyway because it is their private label brand. They have a junk end product, a low mid range with three year warranty and an upper mid range with 5 years. The warranties are simply part of the price differentiation to justify a higher price for their "premium" product.

Much to the benefit of retailers.

Oh, puhleez......

On the contrary.

[Andy Hall]

I was talking about the major manufacturers of corded and cordless power tools. The industry norm is a year with certain offers of 3 years in order to get customer details.

[Doctor Drivel]

Once again..."Kress of Germany is not a wannabee product."

RE-badged using quality products and they stand by the products.

Yep. They cover the market. Take your choice.

It is amazing that someone defends companies offering poor guarantee service of 1 year.

[Andy Hall]

These are reasonable as far as they go but should include ergonomics, controllability and accuracy as well as service and spares availability for professional products.

The manufacturer of a professional tool should also ideally have a reputation and a track record in tools of a certain type established over many years. For example, Bosch make excellent jig saws, Makita make excellent drills, Hitachi make excellent circular saws and Senco excellent pneumatic nailers.

There are some professional tool manufacturers who specialise almost entirely in one area - e.g. Lamello with biscuit joiners and Fein with oscillating mult-purpose tools.

There are a very small number who are able to introduce innovative new tools and technologies where the purchaser can be quite confident that they will almost certainly have done a good job. Festool is an obvious one in this category who over the last few years introduced a stepping motor based drill (C12), a new form of joining machine (Domino) and an innovative SCMS design (Kapex)

Not in my view. This company has no market position in the UK and is sold as the entry level in its categories.

That's because it's one of a range of brands produced by the large Chinese conglomerate, Techtronics Industries. They have a very cheap brand, Power Devil, two mid range, AEG and Ryobi, and a higher end, Milwaukee. The Milwaukee products mainly sold in the U.S. and were positioned and deserved the accolade of chunky and heavy duty tools for contractors. In particular, their worm drive circular saws and substantial drills were legendary. Following acquisition of the brand of TTI, they are a shadow of their former self.

I disagree. This is making the correlation between DIY use and price which simply doesn't hold water.

Which illustrates the point of products with gimmicks at price points.

[Andy Hall]

There has been relatively little variation in the Euro to Sterling exchange rate. The company is Bulgarian and manufactures there. It has German management. and an office in Berlin. They previously made AEG tools under license before that brand was sold to TTI.

Aimed at but not particularly successful by market share because these are mid range and not professional tools. There is nothing innovative in the common battery pack concept. The major manufacturers have been offering that for years.

They are reasonable for the price charged as a mid range but not a professional product.

Milwaukee is TTI's "professional" brand

The price point isn't particularly relevant in terms of suitability for DIY purposes.

The retailers simply want to have products targeted at certain price points that they can shift in volume.

[Andy Hall]

I would agree with and include that as well.

If I buy and use good quality tools, I can get a better result and I am not likely to get fatigued because the ergonomics are poor. The outcome is a pleasing and cost effective result.

One would hope that the capex for the tool could be amortised over many projects. The tool rental places are there for cases where those economics don't add up.

I certainly do, and would agree with you that for some people it is a chore and necessity. In that era, I tended to use it as a learning opportunity but soon realised that I could fairly easily do a better job than a professional.

Fashions change though. People in general have more disposable income as well.

I don't see any argument that equates DIY simply and only with saving of money and especially for buying on price rather than value. That is very limiting and not representative of the market of today.

[judith]

Did his eye shield fail as well?

[Andy Hall]

Nope. I am absolutely serious. If your sole purchasing criterion is price, then that's for you, but it is erroneous to assume that everybody has price as the only or even the leading criterion.

It's a Bulgarian company that has been around for some years. Like Kress, it has not been successful in establishing its own brand other than in certain geographies so chooses to increas volume by selling at low prices in other territories.

No it isn't. That's the entry price for a decent one.

[Andy Hall]

Where can I buy them in the UK with a Kress label?

No, Wickes (allegedly) stands by the products.

Wickes cover the market for them in the UK. I am sure that Kress would have prefered to use Wickes as a reseller and establish the Kress brand. However, it seems that not only were Wickes able to have a private label situation but may well also have excluded Kress from selling with their own brand. This rather suggests a weak commercial position.

The guarantee is somewhat irrelevant as we already established.

[dennis]

DIY users are usually prepared to pay more for a product that is easy to use. People that are learning to do DIY buy cheap stuff.

[Andy Hall]

That's probably true. The novice also tends to be attracted by gimmicks - e.g. laser guides and cordless tools with lots of volts.

[Doctor Drivel]

It is German and makes some stuff in Romania.

Yep they made top quality AEG stuff

Amazing! Many pros use them.

Pro product. Many pros use them.

It is when far less than £100 get most DIY tools.

[Doctor Drivel]

Then you are mad.