Mac Disaster

[Doctor Drivel]

Kress survive because they are quality products. The high tonque drill/drive with the angle attachment is the only product in the world like that - innovation too.

[Andy Hall]

That alone doesn't do it. Their better end range is better than Ryobi for example, but not outstanding and not up to the level of the major manufacturers. There is nothing innovative.

No it isn't. Festool originated that one some years ago.

Not only does Festool have the angle attachment, but they have an eccentric chuck as well so that one can drill/drive close to an edge (e.g. inside a cupboard) in a straight line. The two chucks can even be used together.

?ProdID=490294&ID=2These work with the Fastfix system on their entire product range and come as standard in most of their drill/driver packages.

[:Jerry:]

Sorry but that is exactly what it is, many of the arguments you are putting forward are of the straw man type.

Equally you could buy a product at a low end price point which will last a life time of hard use, because of were it's been made, or the fact that it's a re branded product that would normally had a well known brand mark in an existing market.

I'm not passing judgment on Kress (or any other manufacturer), just the straw arguments that you are using, The only judgment that can be used is how they perform - not what they look like, what they are called, where they can be bought or what the service arrangements are.

Well having worked with certain tools within the Festool range I'm not overly impressed, not good when each (basic range) unit cost circa 1k ukp *each* - one should not have bearings failing each year, plastic clips breaking off in use, hoses connections failing, or indeed hoses failing in use - true the machines are extensively used but what do Festool expect when selling to the commercial sector?

Well your latter point is true for all companies, if DeWalt or Festool went bust spares would become a problem too.

[:Jerry:]

So you keep repeating, but can you site documented evidence to that effect?

[Andy Hall]

Absolutely not. They are clearly explained. Different people may have different criteria for purchase, but that doesn't alter the principles.

They aren't straw arguments.

Of course how they perform is important.

However, don't confuse ergonomics with appearance. Ergonomics is about ease of use, weight, balance, controllability and so forth.

Where they can be bought is also extemely important. For the consumer, the contract of sale is with the retailer and he bears primary responsibility for the quality and servicability of the goods. A supermarket operation is not geared up to provide service and so the quality manufacturers provide spares and service arrangements. As long as these are effective, it doesn't matter where the product is purchased. OTOH, the unbranded tools sold as low end products in the DIY stores are not provided with service and spares because it is not economic to do so. The retailer and supplier take a commercial view on the returns rate and pricing is adjusted to account for that. As long as the customer understands that he is getting a 1,2 or 3 year product that is living on borrowed time after that, then no problem.

I choose not to subscribe to the disposable tools business model.

The basic range models do not cost circa £1k each. Drills and sanders are in the £200-300 range. All of mine perform excellently.

Of course. The big difference is that they have a sustainable business model, so that is highly unlikely.

[:Jerry:]

Even a straw man argument can be clearly explained, it doesn't change the basic merit of the argument used!

Little do you know about what Festool make then! The sanders I'm talking about do cost from circa 1k each.

More snobbery, any business in a competitive market can go bust, more so if they indulge in 'own brand snobbery' and miss up and coming competition (as has happened)...

[Andy Hall]

Possibly not. I think that there is plenty of merit or I wouldn't have made the point.

That's fine. The context was about woodworking tools that are comparable to those of the major professional tool manufacturers.

It isn't an issue of snobbery, but of making correct business decisions by manufacturer and customer.

Creating and maintaining a brand purely on form without substance obviously goes nowhere and it should be obvious from my comments about functionality, accuracy, ergonomics and servicability that I am very much talking about substance.

Unfortunately, these are not enough. It's possible to build perfectly good products. However, without the ability to manufacture at the right cost point and to have the routes to market, it goes nowhere and will ultimately fail. Good market communications, product marketing and channel marketing are essential to achieve the routes to market but unfortunately cost a lot of money.

This is why I make the point about small manufacturers in western Europe with high cost base, inadequate marketing and little or no product differentiation trying to compete with the big boys. It isn't a winning proposition, no matter how good the product might be.

[dmc]

I've certainly noticed one of the wickes pro tools in my local with a Kress Badge on instead of the Wickes one. Can't remember what it was (SDS drill maybe?) but I definately remember the Kress badge as I remember wondering if this was the start of wickes giving up branding them.

This was in the last couple of months - I've not been up there since so it could have been a rogue box from the factory I guess :)

Darren

[dmc]

Not definate proof but a few years ago I knackered the clutch in my dads Wickes/Kress SDS drill (my fault - I was abusing it somewhat :)). Rang wickes about repairing it and they sent me to a local repair place (a chain that has now gone bust - something like B&D Tools).

Anyway, the repair guy there seemed very knowledgeable and after telling me it was identical to the kress on he had on the shelf pointed out that he could sell me the Kress on for 10 quid less than Wickes sold theirs :)

He assured me they were identical in all but the badge. A few hours later a new clutch was fitted, drill was serviced and it still works brilliantly today.

He may have been talking rubbish but I got the impression he knew what he was on about...

Darren

OMG, I've just realised I'm taking Drivels side - someone shoot me please!

[dennis]

The bit in all guarantees that says "this does not effect your statutory rights" says it all really.. No manufacturers guarantee currently gives you more rights than you have under the sale of goods act that I know of. The only thing you can say is that its probably cheaper for the manufacturer to fix the goods than it is for the retailer to fix them and then pass on the charges plus admin to the manufacturer. You can use that as a bargaining chip if you want a manufacturers service guy to come and fix an out of warrantee item.

[:Jerry:]

Obviously, otherwise you would be trolling, but it still doesn't change the fact that much of your arguments fail into the straw man castigatory.

I think it had moved on to marketing and business practice a long way up the thread...

Yes, and allowing a chain store to market the product as unbranded is not always bad, the German name "Kress" is to close to 'Krass' (with the obvious English overtones) but if the same products are introduced as an own brand but then later 'acquire' the "Kress" label people will associate the shape and colour with the successful own brand IYSWIM.

Which are all relative to what the tool will be asked to do, who will be using it, how and were it will be used - someone who is up scaffolding doesn't want a limited battery life on a coreless drill, someone who is using the same drill for 8 hrs a day will want something with good ergonomics and serviceability, someone drilling holes that have to line up with a mating part will want accuracy, OTOH someone doing a bit of DIY will probably only want functionality [1] - that might even inclued what professionals think gimmicks (such as a laser line, built in spirit-level or battery level LEDs). Non of the above makes for a good or bad tool, only if they can do the *work intended*, by the purchaser, within the *intended market* the manufacture sold it in.

[1] it might not matter if the battery life isn't that great, they won't be using the drill continually that they risk suffering from blisters or the gear train over-heating and needing servicing nor that the hole for hanging the picture is 3mm out of line to the marked point.

Yes and DeWalt are just as capable of falling foul of that as Pro Tools or B&D are, which is probably why they are now found in B&Q and not jut trade outlets.

Except that the largest market for these small manufacturers is within the easiest market to enter, the DIY market, not the difficult trade arena.

[:Jerry:]

Indeed the parts might be inter-changeable but that doesn't mean that the original manufacturing spec' is the same, just that the same dimensions are used due to using the same basic tooling.

[Doctor Drivel]

You know little of power tools.

[Doctor Drivel]

Talking to Wickes managers.

[Doctor Drivel]

Same here. The gut at Archway in London said the same. And they were the Kress agent. The chain went bust and Kress didn't bother with UK agent again as Wickes sold enough of their stock.

[Doctor Drivel]

You can take issue with a maker, but they can be awkward if outside the Guarantee period. You may be within the law, but it is hassle to get what you should be getting - lawyers, etc. If the makers says 5 years then inside they honour and no hassle.

[:Jerry:]

Talk about ROFLMAO...

[Doctor Drivel]

No, we talked about the power tools.

[Andy Hall]

I'm not trolling at all. In that sense, the boot is on the other foot for the suggestion that the perfectly well presented discussion points are straw man. They are not.

Your point is an opinion, like mine. Neither are presented as fact.

Nope.

It wouldn't have been but for the following two points:

- There are large numbers of Chinese generic tools on the market that each look almost the same apart from a few tweaks here and there. As a result, the mass market has become desensitised and the unbranded --> branded strategy is no longer of much use

- Kress has nothing really innovative to offer and so it would be difficult for any selling points to be transfered and recognised in going from unbranded to branded.

I hadn't really noticed that, and I am not sure that I would have done, or indeed that a lot of punters would either. OTOH, a product name of Sparky sounds more like a make of cheap toy.

I think that that would be a very long shot given the market conditions.

Wrong assumption. "Doing a bit of DIY" does not mean that ergonomics, servicability, accuracy and usability fall by the wayside. This is the same incorrect logic that because something is for DIY it should be cheap.

Under many circumstances an error in positioning of 3mm results in worthless job. This is using the argument that because it's DIY, accuracy doesn't matter. Accuracy is accuracy whether a professional is doing the work or anybody else.

If you read the analyst reports, you will learn that the branded tool manufacturers are placing product in B&Q etc. in order to maintain and grow market share. This is precisely because they have worked out that there is a certain, albeit small, amount of trade business in them.

Why do you think that the three major manufacturers have all gone into this?

You have got to be joking. The easier market to enter would be that with good margins and where the manufacturer can have some USPs. Fein has done this very effectively with their oscillating technology, protected with a raft of patents and by selling into the upper market.

The "DIY" supermarket category is as cut throat as it gets. Products have a model lifetime of ten minutes before the next gimmick is required, it's a numbers game with retailers wanting hefty margins and the manufacturer taking all the risk with returns. This is the market of the volume Chinese production houses, not the small European manufacturer.

[Andy Hall]

That's a little odd coming from someone who thought that Sparky was a German manufacturer with production in Romania, when it is a Bulgarian company; and who thought that Kress was innovative with their angle chuck.