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On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:01:24 -0400, "Ed Huntress"

of it is opinion or subject to argument. However, that last piece is not. The Bill of Rights was proposed by Congress and submited to the States AFTER the Constitution had been ratified. The Constitution was ratified by the 9th state on June 21, 1788 and became effective on March 4, 1789. The first Congress under the Constitution submitted the Bill Of Rights to the States for consideration as Amendments to the Constitution on September 25, 1789. The Bill of Rights (or the first 10 Amendments to the Constitution) became effective on December 15, 1791. Clearly this timeline shows that the purpose was NOT "to get the anti-federalists to calm down and ratify the Constitution" though admittedly there was much talk about a Bill of Rights at the various legislatures when the states were debating the Constitution. The Federalist Papers and "anti-Federalist Papers" represent a number of articles discussing this in the context of the times (along with a lot of other issues of concern with the proposed Constitution).
"In Massachusetts, the Constitution ran into serious, organized opposition. Only after two leading Antifederalists, Adams and Hancock, negotiated a far-reaching compromise did the convention vote for ratification on February 6, 1788 (187168). Antifederalists had demanded that the Constitution be amended before they would consider it or that amendments be a condition of ratification; Federalists had retorted that it had to be accepted or rejected as it was. Under the Massachusetts compromise, the delegates recommended amendments to be considered by the new Congress, should the Constitution go into effect. The Massachusetts compromise determined the fate of the Constitution, as it permitted delegates with doubts to vote for it in the hope that it would be amended."[7]
Four of the next five states to ratify, including New Hampshire, Virginia, and New York, included similar language in their ratification instruments. They all sent recommendations for amendments with their ratification documents to the new Congress. Since many of these recommendations pertained to safeguarding personal rights, this pressured Congress to add a Bill of Rights after Constitutional ratification. Additionally, North Carolina refused to ratify the Constitution until progress was made on the issue of the Bill of Rights. Thus, while the Anti-Federalists were unsuccessful in their quest to prevent the adoption of the Constitution, their efforts were not totally in vain." [from Wikipedia - yeah I know that is not autoritative]
Dave Hall

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None of it is opinion. Opinions are what people have when they don't have the facts. The facts in this case are not at all difficult to find.
The first part you can clear up by finding a good English grammar text, British or American. Or look up "nominative absolute" on the Web. It ought to be there someplace.
FWIW, a "clause" in the law means several things. In English, it means just one thing. A phrase can be a clause in legal terms but not in grammatical terms. And it is the grammar of it, not the law, that determines such things as grammatical dependency.
I've been an editor for 34 years. Don' gimme no stuff. <g>

Your understanding of it is incorrect. Those states that demanded an explicit bill of rights ratified on the condition that Congress would produce one. This fact is all over the history books. It's not a controversial issue.

...which is what I said above, and which you appear to be contesting.

...as I said above.

...as I said above.
Just what is it you're contesting?
-- Ed Huntress
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Oddly enough..virtually every state in the Union also includes some form of 2nd Amendment guarantee in its state constitution as well
Gunner
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wrote:

And where's the part of that which says a "well regulated militia" is the ONLY reason you can own a gun?
I expect you don't know, and are just mindlessly repeating some nonsense you heard somewhere (from someone who doesn't know either).
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on 9/12/2007 10:48 AM Sam E said the following:

It is the section that gun proponents quote. If there is another section that outlines gun ownership other than the 'militia, please cite it.

need to do so?
--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
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willshak wrote:

If there is another section that defines "the people" as "members of a well-regulated militia" then please cite it.
In any case, by law all males between the ages of 18 and 45 who are citizens of the US are members of the militia.

His suggestion that you are parroting something that was told to you is no more insulting than your suggestion that he had not read the Amendment in it entirety.
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On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 23:52:48 -0400, willshak

This is simply another red herring for a yet another "gun grab."
The idea of armed and trained citizens united in well-regulated and organized local militia units strikes terror in the hearts of politicians and political functionaries everywhere.
In many states this is specifically prohibited unless they are under the control of the political authorities as is our so-called national guard.
As in most things, if the politicians and bureaucrats are against it, it is the best thing for the people.
FWIW -- as soon as it became obvious that using national guard troops to augment the border patrol / ICE was having very positive effects on reducing illegal immigration, they were removed from such duty. Why are national guard units on border security duty a good thing in Iraq but a bad thing in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California?
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ===========Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains.
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), U.S. president. Letter, 17 March 1814.
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wrote:

Oh, I doubt that. Is there some historical support for that, say, in the first years after our independence? There sure were plenty of armed citizens around.
Say, George, have you gotten any surprise calls from the NRA lately? I got one last evening, intended for my wife. How they got her on the list I'll never know. It was either AARP or the NJ Education Association. <g>
Anyway, this sweet young thing named Angel asked if I had time to hear from Wayne and I said sure, I hadn't talked to him in nearly 20 years and it would be a pleasure. Wayne came on the phone and started talking but he didn't let up when I talked back. He acted as if he didn't even hear me. I guess we had a bad connection.
Wayne was running on about some new bill, H.R. 1022 I think, that the Democrats from Hell had introduced, which must be something awful. If I heard him correctly it allows registered Democrats to slit my throat and disembowel me if I'm caught with a gun, or something like that. Anyway, Wayne was talking a mile a minute (the guy still has *some* energy) and then he left. Another sweet young thing came back on and seemed surprised that I was still there. She said she needed for me to take out a five-year membership for the limited-time price of $100. I started to tell her about why I had not renewed my NRA membership but it obviously didn't interest her, so I changed the subject. I wanted to know how everybody at HQ was doing, and how the gun-rights battle is going.
I don't think she was equipped to answer that but she filled in by offering me something if I re-upped; it sounded like some kind of Swiss Army knife. I haven't had one of those so I was intrigued. Then she threw in the real coup de grace: a gen-you-wine, rosewood-handled NRA knife. This excited me. I didn't even wait to hear if it was a sheath knife or a folding knife. I just pictured myself whipping out a knife with "NRA" on the side at a client meeting in NYC, cleaning my fingernails with it while discussing market shares or something.
So I told her OK. This appeared to nearly knock her off her seat. I had my choice of magazines (no Playboy, unfortunately, and they didn't offer Harper's or Mother Jones), so I went for trusty old _American Rifleman_. It's time for me to catch up on the new technology, especially those 1,000-yard woodchuck guns. I could sit on a hill near hear and cover half the county with one of those, which may be just a fantasy but it's something that definitely would be easier on my legs than walking all over hell. I would have scoffed at those things 20 years ago but no more. I'm tired of walking.
Before she hung up she asked if I wanted to contribute another $15 specifically to take out a political contract on Hillary. I told her don't push it.
I wonder how long before I get the Swiss Army thingie and the real prize, my NRA knife? I can't wait.
-- Ed Huntress
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On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:54:19 -0400, "Ed Huntress"

While this depends on definitions, while there were indeed plenty of armed citizens in the first few years of the Republic, there was an almost total lack of politicians and functionaries as they had all decided to move back to England (either before or after the tar and feathers). Over time, we grew our own, until we are again overrun.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ===========Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains.
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), U.S. president. Letter, 17 March 1814.
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wrote:

...sigh... George, I can't wait until you write your book. d8-)
-- Ed Huntress
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F. George McDuffee wrote:
| Over time, we grew our own, until we are again overrun.
Perhaps we can learn from our mistakes. Next time we might consider drinking the tea and throwing the _politicians_ into the harbor. :-)
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto /
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"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."-- Claire Wolfe
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Kurt Ullman wrote:

I strongly disagree :o)
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Should I assume you are taking exception to the second part and not the first?? (g)
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on 9/13/2007 8:36 AM Kurt Ullman said the following:

To quote Robin William's character, Presidential candidate Tom Dobbs, in "Man of the Year". "Politicians are a lot like diapers. They should be changed frequently, and for the same reasons."
UK - diapers = nappies
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Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
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On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:54:19 -0400, "Ed Huntress"

While I am a life member of the NRA, this is more fund raising and s**t disturbing.
In most cases a single member in either house can place a "hold" on a bill. Thus all of the gun legislation was passed with at least the tacit cooperation of the so-called "pro gun" legislators.
This again appears to be more punch-n-judy show for the suckers, er... ah .. campaign contributors and voters.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ===========Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains.
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), U.S. president. Letter, 17 March 1814.
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wrote:

Not to mention us new members. <g>
I forgot to mention that the sweet young thing offered me a lifetime membership at the reduced rate of $700. I told her she'd have to reduce it a hell of a lot more than that before it was a good deal for me...
-- Ed Huntress
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Ed Huntress wrote:

"700$" No thanks, I always get more than that. ;-)
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I\'ve got my DD214 to
prove it.
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wrote:

You're crude. d8-)
-- Ed Huntress
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Ed Huntress wrote:

You should hear me tell off telemarketers. ;-)
I had one Heating A/C company call me 35 times in one week, insisting that I needed their annual inspection service on a central air system. (I didn't even have a window unit.) This was before the do not call list.
The last time they called I told them that I had hundreds of retired friends in town, and if they called me one more time that these people would take turns tying up all of the company's phone lines with stupid questions, and calling to have the company send their sales people out to give estimates, with no intention of spending a dime and promised her that it would be damn near impossible for a legitimate customer to get through on their phone lines. She yelled, "That's harassment!" I laughed and told her, 'Now you know how I feel.'
They never called back. Was it something I said?
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I\'ve got my DD214 to
prove it.
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