Load center replacement

[HeyBub]

If THEY raise the issue, you can offer the simple solution.

Some of "THEM" may, however, just think "Uh-oh!" and walk away.

[bud--]

I wouldn't seal the gutter to the panel.

Not sure what plastic bushings you are talking about. Might be perfectly good.

For the closest connection I would use "chase nipples" from the gutter into the panel through matching holes (as you plan to do).

Pete suggested a "stub of 2 inch conduit" to connect the gutter to the panel. (Could also one or more 2" chase nipples.) Usually running a lot of wires in conduit would be a problem because you have to derate the current rating of the wire up to up to 65%. When the conduit is shorter than 24" that does not apply. This may not be the code where you are. It could make the installation much easier (may or may not require gutter splices).

------------------------------ Do you actually have aluminum branch circuit wiring? It was only used in the US from about 1965 to the early 1970s. Much earlier there was rubber insulated tinned copper that can look like aluminum.

I does not matter if the panel busses are aluminum since you are not connecting the wire to the bus bars.

The best information, based on extensive research, on branch circuit aluminum connections I have seen is:

relatively new splice device that appears to make good aluminum connections is: But that is the US. More questions for an inspector.

Ask your inspector. A commercial gutter might be cheaper and raise fewer flags.

I would avoid stainless because it is, as I remember, much harder to work with than steel.

But it is a problem for half the branch circuit breakers on a horizontally mounted panel.

[clare]

If I use "chase nipples" I require the plastic "anti-short" bushing if the nipple is metal. Not required with plastic. Not enough room to use 2" nipple. Total difference in "height" between old and new panel is 4 inches. The "stub of 2 inch conduit" would have to be basically just the threads with a nut on either end.

The panel only has provision for 1 2 incher in the load center end, and one in the "Main" end.

How about a 4 inch long conduit nipple in each knockout, with the connector that normally gets screwed onto the panel screwed into the end of the conduit instead - so I end up with 6 3/4" stubs and 2 1" stubs sticking out of the top of the panel with the "romex" connected to the top, the individual wires from the "romex" entering the panel via the conduit??? Then I just make a metal sheild panel to fit over top, hiding the "Rube Goldberg" setup from open view?????

Yes, it is second generation aluminum wiring. The stuff that doesn't crack every time you look at it the wrong way - used from about about

1973/74 'till about 1978, when aluminum wiring basically dissapeared from the market. I believe it has more copper in it than the earlier aluminum, but I'm not sure. The old crap was 1350 alloy. The good stuff is 8000 series. HUGE difference. But to a home inspector or an insurance company "it's all aluminum".

No problem as mu buddy fabricates stainless steel enclosures as a regular part of his job.

[bob haller]

if its so easy just do it all once...... changing the main entrance cable to support 200 amps will solve many of the install issues. 90% of all home buyers demand a home in perfect condition ready to move in. a electrical make do can discourage lots of buyers

drywall is cheap, open the wall and do it right

once you put your home on the market / or under sales agreement all repairs must be done by registered contractors. all buyers will want receipts. this runs up the costs a lot

>

[clare]

Well, I've checked some more. Waterloo North Hydro requires a "service plan" I think they call it on all panel changes. They WILL require the meter base to be changed if a permit is pulled and an inspection done. They will NOT allow stub conduits, although Kitchener does? or at least did. My electrical contractor friend is checking to see if they still allow 2 cables in one clamp/knockout going into the panel. If WNH requires the meter base to be replaced, it can be raised 4 inches, making the new panel fit (still sideways) (assuming WNH allows the changed meter location) - so the service plan is step #1 tomorrow. If the meter base is changed it WILL get a 200 amp panel. If WNH wants the whole service moved they can stuff it - the old panel will stay. Too bad it's an Amalgamated 4320 instead of a 4220 panel - the 4220 would be a candidate for a "guts transplant", while the 4320 is not.

[HeyBub]

Too bad you live in such a benighted jurisdiction. In mine, one calls the power company to unseal the meter. Once they do that, the homeowner or electrician pulls the meter, makes whatever changes he feels are appropriate, then calls the power company to re-seal the meter. End of story.

[bud--]

Chase nipple:

The gutter and panel can be in contact. Plastic bushing not required. I would run a ground wire to the gutter (IMHO chase nipples aren't a great ground).

But your plastic bushings might work great.

One can punch holes where desired.

And other size holes would be fine. Part of the point was that derating is not required (in the US). The number of wires is limited by the wire fill for that size conduit.

Don't think so.

There are romex connectors that can take 2 cables each (12/2 or 14/2).

gfretwell has written that the new wire is harder, and not likely to extrude, which was one of the problems with the old wire (connection got hot, wire expanded more than screw connection is in, wire compresses, connection looser next operating cycle and gets hotter....)

I would have switches/receptacles marked CO/ALR (in the US).

And it still has problems with surface oxidation when installed. I would use the connection method recommendations in the link provided. Like with connections for larger aluminum wire, the alumiconn connectors deform the wire and probably don't have oxide problems.

As long as he cuts all the holes. (And the inspector OKs it.)

[N8N]

dunno about you but a Stab-Lok panel would be a real turn off to me, so the name is important.

I personally wouldn't use one.

nate

[N8N]

How is the meter located WRT the panel? If it's significantly higher I would be tempted to punch through the exterior wall in a location that will allow you to use a modern panel, then yes, you will have to patch the hole in the siding where the old conduit came through. But that seems like the best solution to me.

good luck

nate

[Evan]

It is sounding more and more like you are bitching because a drop-in replacement doesn't exist...

If you think that you are going to be able to do this without opening the wall... LOL... Good luck...

It seems you are only receptive to specific advice here which fits into your already pre-determined vision of how this work should be able to be done...

Again... Either do it right or leave it the f*ck alone, if your insurance is connected to it and all, then oh well, I guess you will have to keep things they way they are now and your descendants can worry about it after your passing...

~~ Evan

[Evan]

Sounds like your ideas are about a thousand times worse anything I ever suggested...

It sounds way too much like you are being unreasonable about this and that a skilled electrician has the ability to create new knock outs in a panel in many sizes -- they are not stuck using the ones that the factory has provided...

Your "Rube Goldberg" set up would raise more flags than a couple of professionally installed conduits running underneath a window, but whatever your house man...

~~ Evan

[clare]

Required if metal conduit or metal punch-outs up here.

Not legal into the panel in Ontario, apparently - at least it appears it won't pass in Waterloo

The "stripit" makes short work of making holes in stainless sheet.

[clare]

The new stuff is actually not too bad - but it's being discontinued by Schnieder - being replaced with Square D Homeline - which is an even "cheaper" product - even if not less expensive.

[clare]

As VERY plainly stated before, the meter base is DIRECTLY through the wall from the panel. Ends up I may not have much choice - WNH requires a "service layout" that I MUST comply with - which MAY require moving the meter base, or MAY allow moving the meter base, but WILL require replacing it. Find out next week what is involved - which will make my descision whether it gets done at all or not.

[clare]

I just talked to the electric contractor that will LIKELY end up doing the job,( who my Dad worked for the last few years of his working life) given the latest information I'm getting re: Waterloo North Hydro - and the offset conduit nipples would have met his approval up until they were no longer allowed a few years ago. He said it would work, would be VERY neet, totally safe,but sadly no longer allowed, at least in Waterloo North.

As for the knockouts - yes, you can create new holes, but not where existing knockouts already exist but do not line up. That's what "greenley" punches are for.The problem is there is only about 4 square inches of available "real estate" left to add holes.

[HeyBub]

Huh? What happens at this "backup?" Does a big blister form filled with current corpuscles? Should it be lanced if it gets bothersome?

[bud--]

I remember a lot of people posting that they had no problem.

Perhaps if you used "might" as part of your FUD.

[bob haller]

when did they have no problem ?

its been much more of a issue in the last 5 years.

why would any insurance company insure a home at great chance of a loss?"

[clare]

One thing I have found working for an insurance office over the last decade is insurance companies are NOT in the risk taking business!!!

[HeyBub]

Actually there ARE in the risk-taking business. If the insurance companies were to avoid all risk, they wouldn't be writing insurance policies. If there was no risk at all, no one would buy insurance. One can ALWAYS get insurance, no matter the risk - providing they are willing to pay the premium.