Load center replacement

I'm thinking mabee it's time to replace my old fuse panel with a breaker panel. Problem is, the new panels are not even a close match to the old panel. The existing panel is surface mounted with the main switch/fuse on the left, with the power feed coming in from the back in the lower corner. All the "load" wires come in the top. They come out through the plywood service board and then enter thepanel within inches. This does not allow much flexibility.

The closest I've found so far is a Schnieder StabLok panel, but I would need to mount it sideways. No problem with the main breaker as it would be oriented on up, as required by code. The feed would need to come in through an elbow through the bottom of the box instead of the back as the new panel is significantly smaller. I can make all this work - but then half of the load breakers are upside-down. Don't know if that is an issue here in Canada - aparently it is not allowed in the USA. I guess I could always restrict myself to half capacity (use a 40 circuit panel as a 20)

The only problem I can forsee is some know-it-all home inspector seeing the FPE on the panel and demanding a future buyer replace the dang thing because early FPE StabLok breakers got a REAL bad name in the USA (rightly or wrongly). We will likely be selling in the next 5 years or so (which is the MAJOR reason I'm even thinking about replacing the panel in the firstr place.

Reply to
clare
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It is clear that this project is beyond your skill level...

First you are looking for a panel with an identical layout to the one you have installed now... -1...

Second you had not thought at all about removing your present fuse box guts and using it as a junction box, extending all of the existing wires through conduits to a new circuit breaker panel installed next to the existing one, then obtaining a piece of sheet metal of the proper thickness to correctly cover the old fuse box...

Then there is no fusing around with any of the old wiring removing them from the old panel and installing them into the new one, old wires sometimes lose their flexibility and it would really suck to have to trace circuits back and install new home runs or have to work with many junction boxes out and away from the panel...

Call an electrician to do this for you...

~~ Evan

Reply to
Evan

Au contraire my friend

Not an option Not enough space, and besides that it would look like heck as well. Would sure turn off any future buyer.

Not a chance. The wire is in VERY good condition. And I've done a LOT of this work in the past. Used to work wit my dad, who was an electrician, and actually wired this house back in the early seventies.

Even if I decided to get an electrician to do the job I am the one choosing what goes in and what it is going to look like when it is done. I know there are lots of ways this can be done that would be FAR less than optimal. Anything less tha RIGHT, it will stay the way it is

- because there is nothing WRONG with it the way it is. In 30 years the only fuses I've had to replace have been from jamming the table saw or starting the compressor when it was too cold and stiff.

ANd it DOES still have 2 spare circuits available.

I do know, however, that any half-assed home inspector hired by a future buyer would flag the fused panel. And I've never met a home inspector that was anything better than half-assed - period. They pick on small unimportant stuff and miss the big expensive important stuff.

"you don't want this house, there's no dish washer, and the switch plate in the bathroom is cracked" and they don't catch the bad grading that causes water to flood into window wells in heavy rain, or the blistered cast iron drain stack, or even the extention cords, or even telephone wire, used to wire the rec room. Went through that before we bought this place 30 years ago without an inspection. I checked this place myself and no problems I wasn't aware of. I knew the windows were cheap contractor windows that would eventually need replacing, along with the roof - I replaced the roof 7 years later, and the windows starting after 15 years, finishing this year.

Reply to
clare

how many amps is the main? 200 is todays standard

the main cable and meter can are 40+ years old, even if they appear fine 40 years is a long time

how many circuits does the current main panel support? the higher the main amp rating the more the number of circuits.

your far better off replacing the entire service drop, upgrading if needed the grounding, and installing a new 200 amp main panel/

FBE richly deserves the reputation it earned. that panel should go for metal recycling.

do get the install inspected home inspectors now checvk on that and proper permitting.

or have endless hassles at home sale time:(

Reply to
bob haller

Simple, you install a length of wire trough (4" sq x 18" or so) at the top so all those wires enter into the trough. You mount the new normal panel about six inches below the trough connected to it with a stub of

2" conduit. All your too short wires that enter the trough are connected (wire nuts) to new wire that continues down through the conduit to the new panel and connects normally. You can consolidate the grounds and carry them down on a single heavy conductor, in fact you can install a standard accessory ground bar in the trough for that purpose. All of the neutrals must come down individually same as the hots.

Your power feed can enter the back of the new panel at whatever knockout is convenient. The panel may be mounted with the main breaker at the top or bottom, whichever is most convenient, as long as the main breaker is not over 6' high. If the power feed wires are too short to reach the main breaker they can be extended with new wire and appropriate connectors (I like the tubular AL splice connectors with double setscrews on each side. Remember to apply NoALox compound to those connections.

I've done a number of load center replacements like this, all inspected and approved and generally with comments on the neat job.

Here is a similar example:

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This one uses a pull box, but I've used troughs in tighter installations, all inspected and approved. This particular installation is in a no code area though, no permits or inspections required. You can also see that the main breaker in this QO panel operates left/right. The upper right breaker below the main with the metal frame around it is the back feed breaker from the generator feed. The SquareD interlock kit installs on the cover and mechanically interlocks the main and that breaker for a code compliant generator installation.

No such code requirement in the US. Many main breakers operate left/right, not up/down.

I've never seen a panel installed sideways in the US. Main up or main down are both very common though.

I recommend using a SquareD QO series panel (not Homeline), they are about the best available and are all I use for my personal jobs.

Reply to
Pete C.

It is 100 and will likely stay that way.

The meter can is totally separate from the service panel, and the panel is in a dry semi-finished area - like new inside and out.

The current main panel supports 2 cartrige blocks for stove and range, as well as 20 standard "plug" fuses. currently there are 2 spare circuits in the panel. This is equivalent to a 24 circuoit breaker panel.

the StabLok 100 amp load centers are available with 16 to 40 circuits

It's an underground service

The good ones do. Most of them up here are half blind and stupid. And if properly installed, they would not be able t tell it had been replaced in the last 10 years. However, inspection is not an issue. Will be required by the insurance company anyways when I switch insurers - which is another reason I'm considering doing it NOW. I moved my car insurance from the insurer I've been with for 53 years, who currently also insure the house. The new insurer wants an inspection.

Reply to
clare

IF it is Kosher to run the panel on it's side (half the breakers upside-down) - which it APPEARS to be in Ontario, the only wires that are going to be an issue are the incoming neutral, and the ground. Both will be abouit 6 inches short. The double set-screw tubular splice or the split-bolt "BUG" are both solutions to those two. The old banel has a 3 connection "ground" buss to which both the ground and neutral are connected, as well as the neutral from the main switch to the fuse panel. ( the main switch and the fuse panel are like 2 totally separate boxes in one physical enclosure - with cables in between - so I have lots of salvageable cable to extend the neutrals)

The existing panel is WAY to big to leave as a junction box as another respondent recommended. It's about 23X26 inches and between a window and a wall, where mounting the new panel beside it would be ugly/difficult/nigh unto impossible and probably illegal.

Using a chunk of wiring trough above the panel WOULD be an option but would also involve transitioning virtually every wire from AL to CU. Sinse all the busses etc in the new panel are AL I'd prefer to keep the original AL wire intact all the way. No dis-similar metal connections instead of 2.

Horizontal ia apparently no problem, but if vertical operating (either main or branch) I've been told they must be up-on in the USA.

Most older panels in Canada were "side main" with the switch mounted "up-on"

I'll check out the QO to see if it is as adaptable as the StabLok. I KNOW it is significantly more expensive - but the price is not really part of the decision process at this point.

Thanks for your good input.

Reply to
clare

obviously you have ruled out a upgrade to 200 amps.:(

What your missing is a perspective buyer may anticipate a lifestyle requiring more than 100 amps.

So the buyer and home inspector have this conversation.

The main panel is new and looks perfect, but the main entrance cable is a underground line probably dating back to the time the home was built. that cable may be in poor condition, its underground. and in any case its limited to 100 amps, just half of the typical new service today...

the buyer may prefer all sorts of new electrical things and you have just discouraged a sale.......

if thats what you want thats fine....

ultimately its your wallet.......

Reply to
bob haller

However, inspection is not an issue.

thanks you point out something I have been posting here for years.

homeowners insurance companies frequentky REQUIRE a inspection before writing a new policy.....

some posters here claimed this wasnt occuring.

check your home for obvious defencies, things like age and condition of roof, presence of K&T wiring, your current issue a fuse box, bad sidewalks, things like trip hazards, overall condition of home, do all stairs have handrails? any debris under a porch or piled up in yard, you go away on extended vacations? or snowbird to a winter home?

all of these and more can either raise or homeowners cost or make getting insurance impossible

Reply to
bob haller

I prefer the tubular splices for neatness in a panel since they don't make a huge inline lump. Bugs are good if it's just in a big junction box. If the panel is installed sideways, the door isn't going to work very well.

Something best done in a separate space like a trough, using approved connectors.

If the busses are AL, it's a crummy panel. The SquareD QO panels are solid copper busses (tin plated) and are mostly covered vs. exposed competition.

I've never run across such a requirement in the US, but I don't recall if I've seen an upside down vertical operating main.

Perhaps 50% more expensive, which for a residential panel and breakers means about $100 more for the project.

Good luck.

Reply to
Pete C.

Just checked with my dad (retired electrician, and in failing health) and he said no problem in Ontario with side mounted panels, and if people think StabLok breakers are the only ones that fail, he could tell me about more Square "D" QO horror stories than Stab-Lok - and he used Stab-Loc (FPE) almost exclusively, with virtually no problems. He could remember several Square "D" QO breakers that popped the 100 amp main without tripping the 15 - and a few where wires were badly overheated before the 100 tripped. He never had a Stab-Lok fail that badly.

Will likely go with the Stab-Lok unless I can find a QO that will fit as well. Do need to investigate the LB connection to the panel from the feed conduit yet too.

Reply to
clare

Actually, Waterloo North Hydro apparently provisioned all of the houses in this neighbourhood the same - 200 amp feeders.

The house is small enough(1300 square feet) that 200 amps would be overkill without electric heat. or a heavy duty shop or pottery kiln.

Reply to
clare

Ever see a door on an FPE panel??

ALL of the power busses on the FPE are covered - and the QO are tinned copper, but the Homeline and most other brands are AL.

Reply to
clare

The US-NEC has required bending distances which could be violated if not careful. Coming in what would be the side of a vertical panel shouldn't be a problem. Don't know if you have the same restrictions.

Highly recommended that you talk to the inspector before you start.

I sometimes watch "Holmes on homes"(sp?), a TV program from Canada. Can't remember which province (and I don't always trust what he says).

One of the really odd features is that most service panels are mounted horizontally. That means that half the branch circuit breakers are off-up. (As you said, this is a definite no-no in the US). The explanation seems to be that the hot service connection area has to remain isolated when the panel cover is taken off. As part of that, the branch circuit wires can't go though the top of the panel (if it is mounted vertically). When the panel is mounted horizontally, the branch wires come in the top (side) in the area of the branch circuit breakers. If the panel is mounted vertically the branch wires have to come in the lower sides.

I have no idea if this applies where you are, but it is something to check.

The bad name was rightly deserved. FPE submitted fraudulent test results to UL. The US Comsumer Protection Safety Council did some preliminary tests that didn't look good.

FPE Canada is presumably a good panel. One of the FPE problems was that the breakers didn't always want to stay plugged in. Hopefully that has been improved.

I wouldn't splice the service wires. I think you can do it now in the US, but it is tacky. One end of new service wires would come from the meter can. To safely work there the utility should disconnect the supply wires.

For a horizontally mounted panel Pete's idea of a gutter may work.

Fuses are certainly less convenient. IMHO they are as good or better protection. Might ask a real estate agent if fuses are a problem when selling.

Reply to
bud--

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011 00:15:24 -0500, "Pete C." wrote:

OK, Pete I've checked some more and whether I use the QO or the StabLock, things are NOT going to line up - and I can buy the QO for $6 more than the StabLok - so it's really no issue price-wise. The "trough" makes good sense, because IF I put the panel onto the main feed , the top of the panel is 4 inches lower than the old panel. If I can have a trough 4 inches high and 3 1/3 inches deep, with knockout holes made to match the knockouts on the panel at the bottom, and to match the cable spacing at the top, I can enter my load cables into the trough with the existing cable clamps, and either pass the wires through the trough or splice them in the trough, then through to the panel. If I match drill the trough to fit the panel and use plastic bushings (made for the purpose - not hardware store grommets or any such crap) in the holes to pass the wires through, I don't need any other connectors between the trough and the panel, as long as the trough is firmly connected to the panel??? I'd "gasket" the trough to the panel or seal it on with Silicone, as well as bolting it. The trough face panel would be removeable, making it a legal junction box or pull box. Does this trough or box need to be a approved (CSA or UL) unit or can it be a custom fabricated box?? I can have one made up in stainless or mild steel by a friend quite easily and at reasonable cost. (we needed a 40-some foot long 8"X18" trough made to run cabling in a concrete floor last year and they made that one up for us)

As far as StabLock vs QO, copper buss bars ARE more durable than AL, which tilts in favour of the QO. No stupid home inspector is going to say (as a lot of others on this list have also (mistakenly in my mind) said) "that panel is junk and it needs to be replaced" - so I'll likely "blow the wad" and put in the QO.

The Stab-Lock is outselling the QO about 4:1 right now according to the clerk, just because the panel is about $6 less, and the breakers about $1 each less. Seimens and Eaton Cuttler Hammer are both cheaper ( significantly less - like 25% less) - with Eaton being the lowest cost - but the Stab-Lock is outselling them because of "brand recognition". All the German customers are buying Siemens for the same reason- - - -.

Reply to
clare

Did you notice the OPs first post, converting to breakers to obtain new homeowners insurance.......

obviously a buyer who cant obtain homeowners insurance cant get a mortage......

so its a no sale.......

Reply to
bob haller

buyers want 200 amps because it gives them room to grow....

add AC, a electric stove, and electric dryer. and there you go 200 amps......

while 100 amps is plenty for YOU theres no way for you to know what the buyer may want.....

by not upgrading you will be locking out a bunch of buyers

Reply to
bob haller

I also believe the fuse beats a breaker, hands down - but I KNOW realtors in the area strongly prefer breaker panels, as do the idiot home inspectors.(and insurance companies)

Reply to
clare

You are concerned about it "looking like heck" when you are trying to find the one ideal panel which would be a drop in replacement, oh and you are concerned about the name on the new panel...

WOW...

Grow up... Seriously... Either do it right or leave it alone... Your problem was with where your feeder cable was running, and that is one of the easier things to replace as usually the meter can and the panel aren't all that far away from each other...

So that is one problem that seems to be driving your decision eliminated... As to the other, the wires all coming in at the top, another person suggested here that you install a trough and then use sections of conduit to feed the circuits into the new panel... You could do that if you wanted or use the old panel as the junction box as I suggested, (oh but wait you said it was too close to the window or some foolishness, hmmm, perhaps the new panel could go on the other side of the window -- why not show us a picture of the area so that more information is available to make the recommendation) which is an acceptable option if you replace the cover plate with one which has no openings in it (some inspectors are good with a screw fixing the door in place and others want a solid piece metal cover plate)

I would also upgrade to 200 amp service at this point in time, as a different respondent told you your choices are not going to be the same as the new buyer of your house when it sells... Plug-in hybrid cars are becoming more popular, and while the capability to recharge overnight (10-12 hours) using a standard

15 amp, 120 volt cord is nice and all, a lot of people who buy plug-in hybrid cars want to be able to recharge their cars more quickly and that requires a 240 volt outlet using as much amperage as a 40 amp electric stove...

But it is your choice, your money and your hard luck if your house ends up interesting yuppie/hippie types and you have to fix a whole punch list of things really quickly (thus costing more money for the time pressure) versus making your upgrades on your own time table...

~~ Evan

Reply to
Evan

Nope. The house has electric range, AC, and electric drier, but a gas water heater and furnace. With the AC, range (all 4 stovetops plus the broiler on at the same time) and the drier running you are still well under 100 amps.

200 amps is a REQUIREMENT with electric heat

If THEY want 200 amps they can change the breaker and pay for the service upgrade if required. They won't have to change the panel.

Reply to
clare

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