Need to replace Electric Baseboard Heating Units & Replacement Windows

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combustion
Been working on propane heaters for many years here too... big deal. You do know that years of experience doesn't qualify as QUALITY service?
Did I say I was AFRAID of them? No
Did I say they produce CO? Yes
Did I say that using an UNVENTED heater in a home is stupid? Yes
What don't you understand?
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I think you need to re-read my post, KJ.

We often come across units producing lethal levels of CO. The last one was last week. 2000ppm, not air free. Couldn't get the meter out of the vent quick enough. We replaced the unit.
I'll stand by my statement that normal levels are quite low for properly operating equipment. The sky's the limit otherwise.

Say what? Ken, did you even read what I posted? If so, you'll note that I said if it's UL approved it CAN'T even display levels below 70ppm.
Slow down there, buddy.
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give
It's all good. :-)
I just didn't want people to think those "piece of shit" CO detectors they purchase in chain stores are going to save their life.
It's sad that the good ones are not the ones in everyones home.
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I think you said OSHA. Did you mean UL? My UL-approved Nighthawk detector usually displays 0 ppm. Sometimes 9, sometimes 13, if I accidentally put some red hot woodstove ashes in the ash can...
Nick
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Where did you hear that? I seem to recall the regs require a CO detector to make an alarm after certain maximum times at certain CO concentrations, and there was nothing that would prohibit displaying the actual CO conc, even if it was below alarm level.
Nick
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wrote:

to
Here ya go.... the facts.
The American Standard - UL2034
This standard was implemented in the early nineties to cover products being supplied and used in the American (and North American) markets. It has also been subject to a number of amendments over the years (1997,1998, 2001).
Products officially approved to this standard must be clearly marked with the UL symbol (perhaps add picture of UL symbol to web page).
Main alarm requirements :
a.. at 30ppm CO, the alarm must not activate for at least 8 hours b.. at 70ppm CO, the alarm must not activate before 60 minutes but must activate before 240 minutes c.. at 150ppm CO, the alarm must not activate before 10 minutes but must activate before 50 minutes d.. at 400ppm CO, the alarm must not activate before 4 minutes but must activate before 15 minutes
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wrote:

to
Here's some more info...
HOW MUCH CARBON MONOXIDE IS TOO MUCH
Always check with The Authority Having Jurisdiction. Know who is in the building being tested.
ASHRAE 62-89 (American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Engineers)
009 PPM The maximum allowable concentration for continuous (24 hr) exposure. ASHRAE states the ventilation air shall meet the out door air standard referenced to EPA and 9 PPM.
EPA (Environmental Protection Agency)
009 PPM This level or lower as an ambient air quality goal averaged over eight (8) hours. This outdoor air standard is exceeded in many urban areas due to auto exhaust.
Common Action Level
009 PPM or more above what you measured outside is the most common action level in the U.S. by local Authorities of Jurisdiction for further testing. Some jurisdictions require fuel shut-off until problem diagnosed and corrected.
BPI (Building Performance Institute)
10 to 35 PPM is a marginal level in reference to potential or foreseeable problems in some situations. Occupants should be advised of a potential health hazard to infants and small children, elderly people and persons suffering from respiratory or heart problems. If building has attached auto garage, document CO levels in garage. Accept this level as normal where unvented appliances are in use. These levels are unacceptable when originated from vented appliances.
36 to 99 PPM is excessive. Medical alert. Conditions must be mitigated. Ventilation required. Always test garage space. Individually test combustion appliances. All repairs are to be conducted by a qualified technician with proper test equipment.
100 to 200 PPM is dangerous (and is a common building evacuation standard.) Medical alert conditions exist. It is suggested that occupant health inquiries be conducted. It is advisable that someone else transports them to seek medical help; 15 minute maximum exposure upon discovery. Report incident to Authority of Jurisdiction.
ACGIH (American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienist)
25 ppm - maximum 8 hour TWA (Time Weighted Average)
EPA
035 PPM This level or lower as an ambient air quality goal averaged over one (1) hour.
Common Action Level
035 PPM is also a common action level for fire department or other emergency responders to utilize self contained breathing apparatus when occupation of that environment is to be sustained by that responder.
035 PPM or less averaged over an 8 hour day within that workday is a common goal of specific States Occupational Health and Safety Administration or similar state entity. This is also a common goal of many employers despite higher regulated concentration standards and may require the measurement of several simultaneous reference locations.
OSHA (Occupational Health and Safety Administration)
050 PPM Maximum allowable concentration for a workers continuous exposure in any eight (8) hour period. This 8-hour average requires continuous measurement and accurate reporting in the workplace.
Any increase in PPM from outside to inside warrants further source investigation and is documented, reported and even fixed is common in jurisdictions where a fuel supplier also is considered an Authority of Jurisdiction. This standard is also common to some federally and state funded weatherization programs as well as protocol to some private companies engaged in carbon monoxide testing.
Every home or building where people live, work or play should have a carbon monoxide alarm detector. Please install one that meets the needs of all people. Read the instructions and install them to the manufacturers specifications. Please note the health advisory listed on all alarm packages.
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wrote:

My Nighthawk is UL listed. CO is NOT a normal product of complete combustion. Catalytic heaters are extremely effective and are generally not vented.
The danger of oxygen depletion in a sealed room is significantly greater than the danger of CO poisoning from a catalytic heater.
Tests were done with a i lb propane bottle on a catalytic heater in a 100 cu ft sealed room. Run time was 6.5 hours. At the end of the test, oxygen had been depleted from 20.9% to 8.8%, and CO levels were 67-109ppm. Given a 6.5 hour exposure, the CO levels were deemed not to be a threat to a healthy adult, but the danger of hypoxia due to oxygen depletion was serious.
A reasonable air exchange would make this risk negligible, and would reduce the already "safe" CO level to about 1/100, (air exchange of aprox 13 cu ft per hour would reduce co by 30%, 26 cu ft/hr by 66%, etc)

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<clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message

I'll take my VENTED appliance... it leaves 0 parts of carbon monoxide in my home. :-)
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Untill a squirrel dies in the vent from co poisoning?
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<clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message

my
Have you not been around to many furnaces in the last 10+ years?
A plugged flue = NO HEAT
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Some people will never get it, KJ. You're right about CO. Co is a result of incomplete combustion. Period! ANY GAS BURNING APPLIANCE can experience incomplete combustion for a variety of reasons. Having a non-vented natural gas or propane burning appliance inside a dwelling is dangerous. Those who believe otherwise are playing Russian Roulette, and some will be nominated for the Darwinian Awards.
--
Respectfully, Bob

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YES, they can be very dangerous.
That is if you think dieing is dangerous.
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<clare at snyder.on.ca> wrote in message

combustion
notice
weighted
a
test,
in
Did you miss the "in the last 10+ years" comment? (Or should I say "induced draft furnaces = no heat")
BTW, many "older" furnaces have manual reset spill switches. (this comment doesn't say "all")
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You don't have to install one to "be around" one as stated in the question above.
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So what's your point? There's no such thing as complete combustion in the real world unless you live in Nick's world. Therefore some CO is going into your home. My point is two fold.
First, CO is normal product of combustion. I'd be glad to have you show me any data I can check myself showing fossil fuel combustion using off the shelf equipment the average person's going to have in their home that produces NO CO during the course of its normal operation.
Second, UL listed CO detectors will NOT alarm, unless they're faulty, at CO levels of 69ppm forever. The EPA and ASHRAE recommend a maximum indoor CO level of 9ppm. This is a great country. You are certainly allowed to have whatever level CO you care to expose your family to. For my family, I choose to depend on a low level CO detector.
On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:22:33 -0500, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

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Told ya he was a smart man. :-)
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wrote:

Read UL-2034 and you'll know exactly what it states.
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You're crazy if you are using ventless propane as a heat source. For one anything interferes with it getting enough oxygen and you are dealing with carbon monoxide. Second propane is not refined to be lab pure. It contains any number of trace compounds that are ending up in your living space.
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Steve Cothran wrote:

1 Million BTU = 293 kWh * $0.15 (NY) = $43.95
Propane wins. Plus, when the power goes out, propane still runs, if I had electric, I freeze to death.
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