Dude, Have you read the first two pages of those "non-vented" 100% efficient heaters? Bythe time you finish reading all the warnings and precautions you'll think twice before using a non vented appliance. Bubba
You showed your brain damage by thinking I posted that.
Is my post incorrect? Did I say you posted that?
Please keep up or stay on the porch.
I for one, know that Steve Scott knows his shit. Unlike you.
I don't have time for rude little posers like you. I've been running and fixing propane equipment for years. I take precautions, but I'm not scared of it like you are. It's very common equipment among us off-gridders, with years of worry free performance. If you value scott's opinion so much, why did you mark his post as being stupid? Whatever, you aren't worth the trouble. bbye now.
quoting from that source.....
Chemical equation
Generally, the chemical equation for stoichiometric burning of hydrocarbon in oxygen is as follows:
C_xH_y + (x + \\frac{y}{4})O_2 \\rightarrow \\; xCO_2 + (\\frac{y}{2})H_2O
For example, the burning of propane is:
C_3H_8 + 5O_2 \\rightarrow \\; 3CO_2 + 4H_2O
The simple word equation for the combustion of a hydrocarbon in oxygen is:
\\textrm{Fuel} + \\textrm{Oxygen} \\rightarrow \\; \\textrm{Heat} + \\textrm{Water} + \\textrm{Carbon\\ dioxide}
If the combustion takes place using air as the oxygen source, the corresponding equations are:
C_xH_y + (x+ \\frac{y}{4})O_2 + 3.76(x+ \\frac{y}{4})N_2 \\rightarrow \\; xCO_2 + (\\frac{y}{2})H_2O + 3.76(x + \\frac{y}{4})N_2
For example, the burning of propane is:
C_3H_8 + 5O_2 + 18.8N_2 \\rightarrow \\; 3CO_2 + 4H_2O + 18.8N_2
The simple word equation for the combustion of a hydrocarbon in air is:
\\textrm{Fuel} + \\textrm{Air} \\rightarrow \\; \\textrm{Heat} + \\textrm{Water} + \\textrm{Carbon\\ dioxide} + \\textrm{Nitrogen}
bottom line, I couldnt see where CO by itself is produced.......by combusting propane and oxygen or propane and air..... co2, yes, co, no.
Fish,
Yes I know this--here's where it does get produced :
Makes sense to me. Semantics
We often come across units producing lethal levels of CO. The last one was last week. 2000ppm, not air free. Couldn't get the meter out of the vent quick enough. We replaced the unit.
I'll stand by my statement that normal levels are quite low for properly operating equipment. The sky's the limit otherwise.
Say what? Ken, did you even read what I posted? If so, you'll note that I said if it's UL approved it CAN'T even display levels below
70ppm.Slow down there, buddy.
You are aware that a non vented gas or propane can legally exhaust up to 800ppm of CO into a residence? Levels higher than that are not uncommon.
You're correct, spread>Not all propane appliances are vented. Cooking ranges, fireplaces, and
Catalytic propane radiant heaters are popular in large spaces, but I wouldn't use one in a home, and have never seen one used in a home.
I saw 3 UNVENTED natural gas heaters purchased to be installed in a home by an ex-gas company employee, and heard later that the tenants complained of the odor using them. I had a friend that used stove top burners to heat a couple of rooms upstairs in his parent's house, when I visited my eyes burned a lot.
People do use unvented heaters, and some are advertised as being safe to use in a home, but if there is a warning on the heater to use it ONLY in a well ventilated space, it is probably not safe to use in a home.
There has been a progression in the safety of natural gas space heaters, the first had no safety devices at all, then they had pilot lights with thermo- couples to not open the main valve if the pilot goes out, and both of mine also have an overheat Klixon in series with the thermocouple, and that makes it safer, but requires changing the thermocouple more often because of the resistance of the switch and wires, and the thermocouple produces less voltage after a few months of use.
I have no problem with using the gas space heaters, but I prefer not to have one running in a room I sleep in, even thought they are vented with
5 inch metal vent pipes into a tile lined masonry chimney.Joe Fischer
All gas ranges have had unvented ovens and top burners for all time, and most people know enough to have the air adjusted if there is much red or orange or yellow flames. With pure blue flame they are considered safe, but it is assumed they are not used constantly.
Most of the unvented heaters are not very large, usually less than 20,000 BTU/hour.
My vented heaters are 75,000 and 35,000 BTU/hour, and Cozy also sells them with propane jets, but they are all vented.
Gas water heaters do kill people, but it usually takes both a blocked vent and an incorrect air setting to do that. All gas appliances must have a way to adjust the air induction, and if any red, yellow or orange flame is seen, have somebody that knows how adjust it.
But any over 20,000 BTU/hour should probably be vented, especially in rooms where people sleep. My heater instructions state how much of an opening is required for fresh air to enter.
Joe Fischer
Been working on propane heaters for many years here too... big deal. You do know that years of experience doesn't qualify as QUALITY service?
Did I say I was AFRAID of them? No
Did I say they produce CO? Yes
Did I say that using an UNVENTED heater in a home is stupid? Yes
What don't you understand?
It's all good. :-)
I just didn't want people to think those "piece of shit" CO detectors they purchase in chain stores are going to save their life.
It's sad that the good ones are not the ones in everyones home.
Where did you hear that? I seem to recall the regs require a CO detector to make an alarm after certain maximum times at certain CO concentrations, and there was nothing that would prohibit displaying the actual CO conc, even if it was below alarm level.
Nick
I think you said OSHA. Did you mean UL? My UL-approved Nighthawk detector usually displays 0 ppm. Sometimes 9, sometimes 13, if I accidentally put some red hot woodstove ashes in the ash can...
Nick
Tell that to the 50 million gas range users and the gas company service men that check them anytime the gas has been shut off and they won't turn the meter on until they can get in the house and check all the appliances.
But I turned the supply valve off to my 1959 Magic Chef, I simply don't want pilots on in an unvented stove, in fact I don't need a stove as long as the microwave works.
Joe Fischer
More BULLSHIT.
My Nighthawk is UL listed. CO is NOT a normal product of complete combustion. Catalytic heaters are extremely effective and are generally not vented.
The danger of oxygen depletion in a sealed room is significantly greater than the danger of CO poisoning from a catalytic heater.
Tests were done with a i lb propane bottle on a catalytic heater in a
100 cu ft sealed room. Run time was 6.5 hours. At the end of the test, oxygen had been depleted from 20.9% to 8.8%, and CO levels were 67-109ppm. Given a 6.5 hour exposure, the CO levels were deemed not to be a threat to a healthy adult, but the danger of hypoxia due to oxygen depletion was serious.A reasonable air exchange would make this risk negligible, and would reduce the already "safe" CO level to about 1/100, (air exchange of aprox 13 cu ft per hour would reduce co by 30%, 26 cu ft/hr by 66%, etc)
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