Been working on propane heaters for many years here too... big deal.
You do know that years of experience doesn't qualify as QUALITY service?
Did I say I was AFRAID of them? No
Did I say they produce CO? Yes
Did I say that using an UNVENTED heater in a home is stupid? Yes
What don't you understand?
We often come across units producing lethal levels of CO. The last
one was last week. 2000ppm, not air free. Couldn't get the meter out
of the vent quick enough. We replaced the unit.
I'll stand by my statement that normal levels are quite low for
properly operating equipment. The sky's the limit otherwise.
Say what? Ken, did you even read what I posted? If so, you'll note
that I said if it's UL approved it CAN'T even display levels below
Slow down there, buddy.
It's all good. :-)
I just didn't want people to think those "piece of shit" CO detectors they
purchase in chain stores are going to save their life.
It's sad that the good ones are not the ones in everyones home.
Where did you hear that? I seem to recall the regs require a CO detector to
make an alarm after certain maximum times at certain CO concentrations,
and there was nothing that would prohibit displaying the actual CO conc,
even if it was below alarm level.
Here ya go.... the facts.
The American Standard - UL2034
This standard was implemented in the early nineties to cover products being
supplied and used in the American (and North American) markets. It has also
been subject to a number of amendments over the years (1997,1998, 2001).
Products officially approved to this standard must be clearly marked with
the UL symbol (perhaps add picture of UL symbol to web page).
Main alarm requirements :
a.. at 30ppm CO, the alarm must not activate for at least 8 hours
b.. at 70ppm CO, the alarm must not activate before 60 minutes but must
activate before 240 minutes
c.. at 150ppm CO, the alarm must not activate before 10 minutes but must
activate before 50 minutes
d.. at 400ppm CO, the alarm must not activate before 4 minutes but must
activate before 15 minutes
Here's some more info...
HOW MUCH CARBON MONOXIDE IS TOO MUCH
Always check with The Authority Having Jurisdiction. Know who is in the
building being tested.
ASHRAE 62-89 (American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air
009 PPM The maximum allowable concentration for continuous (24 hr)
exposure. ASHRAE states the ventilation air shall meet the out door air
standard referenced to EPA and 9 PPM.
EPA (Environmental Protection Agency)
009 PPM This level or lower as an ambient air quality goal averaged over
eight (8) hours. This outdoor air standard is exceeded in many urban areas
due to auto exhaust.
Common Action Level
009 PPM or more above what you measured outside is the most common action
level in the U.S. by local Authorities of Jurisdiction for further testing.
Some jurisdictions require fuel shut-off until problem diagnosed and
BPI (Building Performance Institute)
10 to 35 PPM is a marginal level in reference to potential or foreseeable
problems in some situations. Occupants should be advised of a potential
health hazard to infants and small children, elderly people and persons
suffering from respiratory or heart problems. If building has attached auto
garage, document CO levels in garage. Accept this level as normal where
unvented appliances are in use. These levels are unacceptable when
originated from vented appliances.
36 to 99 PPM is excessive. Medical alert. Conditions must be mitigated.
Ventilation required. Always test garage space. Individually test
combustion appliances. All repairs are to be conducted by a qualified
technician with proper test equipment.
100 to 200 PPM is dangerous (and is a common building evacuation standard.)
Medical alert conditions exist. It is suggested that occupant health
inquiries be conducted. It is advisable that someone else transports them
to seek medical help; 15 minute maximum exposure upon discovery. Report
incident to Authority of Jurisdiction.
ACGIH (American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienist)
25 ppm - maximum 8 hour TWA (Time Weighted Average)
035 PPM This level or lower as an ambient air quality goal averaged over
one (1) hour.
Common Action Level
035 PPM is also a common action level for fire department or other emergency
responders to utilize self contained breathing apparatus when occupation of
that environment is to be sustained by that responder.
035 PPM or less averaged over an 8 hour day within that workday is a common
goal of specific States Occupational Health and Safety Administration or
similar state entity. This is also a common goal of many employers despite
higher regulated concentration standards and may require the measurement of
several simultaneous reference locations.
OSHA (Occupational Health and Safety Administration)
050 PPM Maximum allowable concentration for a workers continuous exposure
in any eight (8) hour period. This 8-hour average requires continuous
measurement and accurate reporting in the workplace.
Any increase in PPM from outside to inside warrants further source
investigation and is documented, reported and even fixed is common in
jurisdictions where a fuel supplier also is considered an Authority of
Jurisdiction. This standard is also common to some federally and state
funded weatherization programs as well as protocol to some private companies
engaged in carbon monoxide testing.
Every home or building where people live, work or play should have a carbon
monoxide alarm detector. Please install one that meets the needs of all
people. Read the instructions and install them to the manufacturers
specifications. Please note the health advisory listed on all alarm
My Nighthawk is UL listed.
CO is NOT a normal product of complete combustion. Catalytic heaters
are extremely effective and are generally not vented.
The danger of oxygen depletion in a sealed room is significantly
greater than the danger of CO poisoning from a catalytic heater.
Tests were done with a i lb propane bottle on a catalytic heater in a
100 cu ft sealed room. Run time was 6.5 hours. At the end of the test,
oxygen had been depleted from 20.9% to 8.8%, and CO levels were
Given a 6.5 hour exposure, the CO levels were deemed not to be a
threat to a healthy adult, but the danger of hypoxia due to oxygen
depletion was serious.
A reasonable air exchange would make this risk negligible, and would
reduce the already "safe" CO level to about 1/100, (air exchange of
aprox 13 cu ft per hour would reduce co by 30%, 26 cu ft/hr by 66%,
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Some people will never get it, KJ.
You're right about CO.
Co is a result of incomplete combustion. Period!
ANY GAS BURNING APPLIANCE can experience incomplete combustion for a
variety of reasons.
Having a non-vented natural gas or propane burning appliance inside a
dwelling is dangerous.
Those who believe otherwise are playing Russian Roulette, and some will be
nominated for the Darwinian Awards.
Did you miss the "in the last 10+ years" comment?
(Or should I say "induced draft furnaces = no heat")
BTW, many "older" furnaces have manual reset spill switches. (this comment
doesn't say "all")
So what's your point? There's no such thing as complete combustion in
the real world unless you live in Nick's world. Therefore some CO is
going into your home. My point is two fold.
First, CO is normal product of combustion. I'd be glad to have you
show me any data I can check myself showing fossil fuel combustion
using off the shelf equipment the average person's going to have in
their home that produces NO CO during the course of its normal
Second, UL listed CO detectors will NOT alarm, unless they're faulty,
at CO levels of 69ppm forever. The EPA and ASHRAE recommend a maximum
indoor CO level of 9ppm. This is a great country. You are certainly
allowed to have whatever level CO you care to expose your family to.
For my family, I choose to depend on a low level CO detector.
On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:22:33 -0500, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
The creation of random numbers is too
important to be left to chance.
You're crazy if you are using ventless propane as a heat source. For
one anything interferes with it getting enough oxygen and you are
dealing with carbon monoxide. Second propane is not refined to be lab
pure. It contains any number of trace compounds that are ending up in
your living space.
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