two articles

Page 1 of 4  
from the Scientific American special edition titled _The End_
p. 23 acid rain returns from nitrogen emissions coal fired power plants, cars and then farming listed.
p. 72 bunker fuel (never heard of it before) burned by tankers at sea. if the international shipping industry were considered a country it would rank sixth behind Japan and in front of Germany in terms of green house gas emissions.
songbird
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
songbird wrote:

Bunker fuel is a very thick low grade of petroleum used in very large engines such as ships have. When spilled at sea it forms tar balls. When burned it makes CO2 etc the same as burning other petroleum. It may also have a fair amount of sulphur which is a pollutant when burned.
I suppose they have to list shipping separately otherwise the countries that host flags of convenience would get dudded.
David
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

    Great Godalmighty. Silly me: I thought this to be a newsgroup in which one could exchange gardening information and anecotes. Wrong! NOTHING has changed in the newsgroup since I tried reading it years ago. This is not a gardening newsgroup. It is a social and political propaganda newsgroup. With a few notable exceptions, it is inhabited by pretentious carping know-nothing fools who'd return us to using rocks and sticks to "save" the planet. Now, here's one who actually cites "Scientific American" as a reliable source. Regrettably, some of the gardeners also provide an "amen corner" for the twits.     One would return to, what, sailing ships because steam-powered vessels burn "bunker" grade oil? Bunker oil is any low-grade refined oil that is stored ("bunkered") for later use; period. Odds are good the juice powering True Believer OP's computer comes from the burning of bunker oil and I daresay that, if the powerhouse shut down to protect OP's sensibilities, (s)he would be in the streets with a pitchfork along with myriad other loonies protesting the evil corporation that's letting babies die. Likewise with shipping: I can already hear the douche blaming those evil shipping tyrants for creating shortages and driving up prices. Some people simply try to think too much while lacking the basic resources with which to do so. The _real_ tragedy, as I see it, is that the nitwits can vote. What a world.     I'm back to gardening, which I greatly prefer to reading drivel from pretenders who mistake the reading of magazines and the parroting of hyperbolic hysteria for gardening. Newsflash: Kitchen gardeners and, most especially, market gardeners of my acquaintance don't have time for such crap. They're too busy gardening. They have their fingers in the Earth, not in some slick mass entertainment "scientific" magazine. You guys can continue to play with yourselves; I have fall tomatoes to transplant, onions to plant, and firewood to split and a damnable (F)ix (O)r (R)epair (D)aily truck doorlatch to mend. Sheesh!
in re: ...gardens.edible:     The chicken manure thing didn't work out. Seems "organic" and "composted" don't mean the same to me as to the shit's present custodian. The more's the pitty but, "...and so it goes". Have weekend plans to inspect a hobbyist's horse apples with the aim of claiming them as my own. Today, the headset shall host the five-volume collection of Handel's orchestral suites performed by Trevor Pinnock and EC. Luddite? Not really: I may garden by hand (well, three steel tools if one counts the trusty pruner and the pocketknife) but some days it's Stevie Ray Vaughn in the headset. To my ear, SRV drank from the same creative cup as L. v Beethoven. After repeated listenings, each frequently evokes a smile and a muttered "yes"; what more can one ask? But then, I'm a fan of Lady Gaga, too.     But I digress; the tomato daughters await and the melonheads have shit to stir so I shall leave them to it and you, poor soul, with it. It's that blessed "unsubscribe" button for me!
--
Do you speak spanish?
well, adios, MF.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

And your problem is . . . ?

What are you talking about? Are you denying that shipping food long distances costs fossil fuel, and freshness (nutrition)? And why shouldn't we shift to renewable energy sources? (Fossil fuel is killing the planet.) Why is protesting corporations unique status as individuals in the U.S. wrong? Corporations only exist to make profits. Real human beings are trying to raise children and care for aging parents. Railroads drove up prices in the U.S. (the octopus it was called), but who brought up that subject? Thinking, reasoning is a problem? You don't believe in democracy? Maybe a poll tax would make you feel better. Who decides, who should vote, so that we can keep out the nitwits? I'm not so sure that you aren't a nitwit. Should that cost you your right to vote? You should be grateful that it is such a world.

Go to it. If you want to see my garden, all you have to do is go to <http://tinypic.com/1r509n5u

Is it just me, or do you smell the oder of burning martyr? All this self pity after calling David a marshmallow head, and myself an ignorant twit? My word, but you have very thin skin for one who tosses invectives about so easily.
At least I gave authorities (citations) for my opinions. I see that you give none. How do we know that what you say, isn't just pulled out of your backside? Out of curiosity, how do you hold yourself in higher regard than Scientific American? In what do you have a degree? What attests to your expertise? Why should we trust your vulgar opinions?
Lordy, I always regret purging the twit list, which means, in your case, I won't. Say more stoopid things, and I'll be there, oh yeah.
I was within a whisker of KFing you, but you changed my mind, congratulations ;O)
The group is about gardening + food. Capisce?
You don't, do you? See you in the funny papers.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Raging Rant snipped

Mi dispiace, tu capisco niente.
You are in agreement with him that this is a newsgropup about food gardening. Not so much about water fleas, bunker fuel nor philisophical cherry picked rants on organics.
The EcoNazi rhetoric didn't seem to work on the defunct Gardening Organic Newsgroup either. Stick to the topic of food gardening and save the preaching for your prayer group.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
In article

Mignon, Gunney found a way around my KF.
EcoNazi rhetoric? I'm glad to see that in this ever changing world, somethings are constant. Sadly, I never visited Gardening Organic, Gunnny. Sounds like I should have. How was it? Did you kill it, personally?
Do you have anything to say about food gardening, Gunny? Do you have something to say on the subject of water fleas? Global Warming's affects on gardening seems like it should be fair game to gardeners, and evangelism seems to be back in style, even when it isn't based on faith. Are you out to burn Rodale's books on organic gardening?
To those who don't know Gunny, I should mention that he thinks that organic gardening is a shame. He prefers hydroponics. right Gunny? But, it's not for me to put words in your mouth, Gunny. What do you have to say, hmmmmm?
What's the latest in unsustainable technology?
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Im beginning to believe you really think your juvenile tactics will play in Peoria.
While this is still somewhat a little tete- a- tete, ya gotta know all these cute little foreign verbage you attempt really dont make you sound very worldly billy. Your still an American which means you are a monolinguist with 'tude and I still say an Internet scientist with an agenda.
Regardless, we all know you have never Kill filed anyone. Your narcissist persona couldn't stand to not know what someone was writing about you nor miss the chance to interject your narrow-minded pseudo science views in to any subject thread wile claiming your God given right to do so, but your false bravado claims to have done so. Still, I find you cannot overcome your childish use of subterfuge attempts to cover up your faux pas. Your pattern is so predictable, talk a lot of shit, make a lot of side issues to confuse the original fact, then post something back on topic so as to pretend to be the victim This appears to be the only course of actions you have in your little tool box.

I think you and Charlie show up x-posting around there last, according to Google anyway, Seems you were quoting R. Carson in those days instead of your current hero Mussolini. But be that as it may you still miss the point or is this yet another subterfuge of your latest F/U by agreeing with the guy? BTW, how many posts do you have under your various pseudonyms, without a net, wild billy badbreath or some such. Thousands isn't it,at least ~ thousand under this one huh?.

Why, yes. Yes, I do have something to say, billy boy. Water insects and bunker fuel are not gardening food. Any other diversions or disparging remarks you want to throw out? \

I must say how magnanimous of you to introduce me to your royal court billy boy. Yet you made yet another mistake billy boy, the word you seek is sham, not shame and no, I have never said that. Just another of your many lies and another subterfuge attempt. You, however, are a sham. I'm still betting your not practicing all you pretend. Yes, I do Hydroponics as an extremely viable method of sustainability, 1/10 the water usage and much cleaner and much more eco friendly than the BS you tout (literally and figuratively) . I'm also into Bonsai, aquaculture and have over 85 different herbs/spices going. Are these Eco problems for you also? You stupidly believed that I oppose sustainable agriculture. No, just the overly zealous proselytizing using deceptive methods of propaganda and then the bully ways when that doesn't work. No one has to believe your way is correct just because you post some doubious facts or pretend to have found and read the latest and greatest abstract on the Internet. Your not going to find the future by digging in the past no matter how you want to frame it.
You seem to gloss over any real plant science knowledge except what you can quickly Google to make your point. Your threads are all philisophical, but extremely limited to the eco book de jour in that area as well. (ahh, I now see the need for your use of the little foreign phrases... street creds for the internet, is that right?). Still, you cherry pick info, omit statements and cut and paste snippets of references of internet abstracts you have no subscription for and often misstate facts. Arguing with a PhD, how bizarre was that one? Referencing lawsuits that never happened, quoting MSDS sheets for the wrong substances. Failing tro verify your source's creds. Time and time again you misrepresent or omit facts in your zealousness all the while proving your narrow mindedness. Again you trip up, get caught and create a cover-up and attempt a quick getaway. Quickly posting some pretense on gardening to cover up the latest BS you portend. Planting corn, kale and potatoes this time is it billy? , Very much indicative of a narcissistic personality disorder. All signs of an amatuer researcher. What is your Ed background anyway, or is that a secret you don't want to share?
Debate is always a good thing, but your bullying tactics... not so much. But as long as you have the internet to protect ya, you can be what ever you want to be and you can say what ever ya want from the safety of the Internet's anonymity, can't ya. Still Gardening edible is NOT the philisophal venue to preach your BS, no matter how much you want to childishly cajole and ridicule someone while you continue to push your diffusionist POV. Nor is food gardening the place for the pretentiousness you want to call social awareness. go start a group called eco awareness or whatever. Do note however it seems other's attempts all failed to prosper because of the overly zealous proselytizing your persona requires. But who knows maybe you can make it work, but I'm betting not.

You billy . Keep cutting and pasting your pseudo science and keep digging around in the past maybe you will find the secrets of the future. Perhaps you can find the smoking gun that will prove your malady was a corporate conspirarcy in some secret corporate paper. If not continue making it up. Hell, Beck makes a good living doing it, so have you so far.
Face facts billy. You agreed with the man when you stated "The group is about gardening + food. But you can't ever admit that, it's just not in your persona. There is still time for help for ya billy, overcoming denial is the first step: http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/npd.htm
Your turn Mussolini!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Kinda bizarre that you falsely call for free speech and tell me to live up to my "ideals", all the while tolerating the narcissist berating and belittling people and wanting me to be silent. I do live up to my ideals slick. Tolerance runs thin for BS and lies. So since I paid my share for that right of ours, I do get to have my say, Yes? Or do you think you can take mine away?
You really believe people need to remain silent and accept BS because it's a free speech issue? hmm, So what's your dog in this hunt Phob? Birds of a feather? Part of the same coven? Socialist party perhaps? What are your ideals? As the man said this is a food gardening group, not the propaganda arm of the local eco party. Little billy also agreed and stated such, yet once again somehow he is granted special privilege for his "Glen Beck" approach to domination. Pretty hard to be so self righteous and still be fair,isn't it? I'm of the belief the recent undergrad psych study from one of your countryman, S. Mehdizadehm, is spot on, but she should include those others who live soley on the Internet and attempt to dominate newsgroups in her conclusion.
Yet I digress, So do tell me how bunker fuel is eaten in the great white north. Do you plant it in the spring? When do you harvest it? I'm sure being organic and all, you recommend just piling BS on it and hand watering so as not to over water, it is that about right? No IPM of course because that is not always organic, now is it?
So come on in, I will let ya wrestle the pig with me, there is enough mud we can all get dirty or have you finished with your false flag approach?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
In article <eb692d42-40d8-4e44-ab03-

Actually Washington, I've not told you to shut up. I used buzzwords offensive to the stereotype of the American psyche to tell you you used an offensive inflammatory term that really means shut up.
I've watched you over time and yes, as you say, tolerance for BS runs thin. I was tired of yours a long time ago.
That, however means that I place a number of identifying factors in a killfile and you can continue to say what you like without bothering me in the least. You're more than welcome to do the same with my posts.

This is a place for communication. You are not the arbiter of what is communicated here nor is Billy, nor am I.
I don't agree for a moment with your assessment of the situation or the word domination which flatters Billy but is as incorrect as it is florid.
The name of the newsgroup as you say is rec.gardens.edible and gardening is certainly the primary topic but it is unreasonable to demand that it be absolute. That is a sure way to kill a newsgroup
I think that OT: and POL: (for politics) should be used when appropriate in subject header to allow easy killfiling. It is SOP all over USENET and used judiciously and consistently is a reasonable response to the point you bring up.
My politics have never been hidden in all their ambiguousness. They run a gamut.
My ideal is, generally speaking civility, and where civility on USENET can't happen, killfile. You do the rest of us a favour when you spare us useless argumentativeness with someone who provides the kind of mirror you can't ignore.
...and I think you're behind the curve. Gardening as it's growing up where I live is organic all the way. It is very political very activist and it's gaining strength fast.

If you ignore a topic it will go away.

Organic IPM is certainly possible.

You have the option of thinking this through.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You might as well, Gunny, because I have no interest in you. You are here for gardening, right, and not little moi? Well, get on with it. Post and interact.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Nor Me, well at least not yet :)

Some Day I will dominate the world and the world will all be mine!!! Because no will care.

Not much longer, the ISP's will eventually get rids of the usenet world because those that rule will not tolerate free speech.
Their use to be hundreds of postings here. Now just a trickle. just 10 post here for the day.

Cool!
Killfile the few posters left and you only be responding to yourself.

Many politicians have lost their elections believing in that statement. Or does it grow until it cannot be ignored. However, In the usenet world it is more like: Post a topic - is anyone one there to read it.

Right and Wrong, Truth and Lies are subjective. Ones truth is another's BS.

Yes it is. While the this happens the world will be starving. Go organic IPM and a the few will still stand. Keep going as is and everyone starves, if not too little to late.

I love to wrestle :)

No, I have not thought this through. I know I am not the one you are responding to. I just have fun throwing in the monkey wrench once in a while :) Im just a little bored right now :)
--
Enjoy Life... Dan
Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

And you aren't kidding? Have you lost your mind? Can two different equations describe the same event? Is one a lie?
Look for "The Day the Universe Changed" by James Burk. It's a video.
It all lies in the premise. Once that is agreed upon, everything else is article of faith, or hypocrisy.
For example: all people are created equal.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Lost my mind... Often
"Can two different equations describe the same event?" The answer is is yes, It is called "Relativity". Different frames of references can come up with different equations to describe the same event. Depending on those different frames of references both can be mathematically true. Read up on Einstein and Galileo ( Galileo was the first to call it Relativity). This also applies to life in general.

Seen it on PBS, excellent show.

Faith is believing in something in which all the facts are not there.

A quote from President Abraham Lincoln. The statement is not true: some tall, some are short, some are fat or thin, some are smart and some are not. However, I believe all people should be treated equally under a common law. Thou this is not currently in effect.
--
Enjoy Life... Dan L (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
as always Phobe, you intrigue. No one is "demanding" just tired of the bullying that you deep eco folks condone.
An Instructor once told me "everyone says everything for a reason" find the reason!
so what is the reason you have you "watched me over time" ? Because I expose little billy's BS he throws out. It cannot be lecturing me on civility when you neglect to do for from little billy, No that would be hypocritical and you are not that, are you? It cannot be to correct his many mistakes in his zeal can it, you never discuss those either do you? so again Phobe what is your reason?
Regardless I have been killfiled, yet I have always been amazed at the pretentiousness of those that tell others they will killfile them. Perhaps some secret intellectual ritual they alone possess when the simple process of not reading it would suffice, but there are always those weak individuals that just talk a good game.
walk your talk! Phobe
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
In article <1fa1cf48-6a7b-42f3-971f-77d83d8c73b9
Let me back up a pace. BS comes in a few flavours.
There's the kind of BS that's bad information. There's the kind of BS that's just static. There's the kind of BS that creates static.
I'm tired of the final category.

Stay intrigued.
You came across as demanding. It's a question of tone, context and continuity.
You are quite correct though. I am unabashed, unapologetic straight arrow permaculture eco-warrior change the politics of the world, stomp Monsanto et al into nothingness, permanent green.
...and I'd say that I'm not into being bullied by anyone.
Billy took a few runs at me awhile back and still does every once in awhile but I don't take it seriously. I'm still kicking around. If he'd kept at it and I found it too annoying I'd have blackholed his posts, all posts responding to him and any post that identified him by name in it.

This is USENET. ...and I think your instructor's suggestion doesn't always track.

Your latter question is the trenchant one. The preamble should have been left out.
I'll respond anyway.
In my earlier post I said I think you've found a perfect mirror in Billy. The corollary to that is that what you dislike in Billy is what is unlikable in yourself. Pop psych 101, I know, but there is some truth to it.
What you perceive as a stand against bullying, amounts to an endless fog of static and disruption that is in itself a kind of bullying of the newsgroup. I've been around on USENET since 1985ish under one alias or another and I've seen champions(metaphorically) come and go many times.
For the past while I've been pressing, off and on, for the disciplined use of protocols and this thread with your advent into it is the perfect opportunity to press that button again. There's more than one person reading this so I figure the thought should be making the rounds.
The subject line for this discussion should have begun with OT:

Yeah. I killfile you often enough. I put a limit of a week on the bozo bin and my ignore subject filter. You'd been away awhile so the killfile timed out. If I killfile you now, we wouldn't be able to continue this exchange.
The only permanent limits I put on this newsgroup are crossposting and profanity in the subject header.
Killfiles take the speed of reading out of the equation.
That is, I can take in too much of a post too quickly to use your suggestion to skip over it.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
@yahoo.com says...

bugger... clicked on send instead of save as draft.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Thats OK, we all slow down in old age ( still got your 1985ish beat) . In the mean time let me add that I believe we all like to pretend our actions are dictated by intelligent thought but in reality we just filter fact to fit our beliefs. All about justify our actions isn't it.
Personally, I find it very difficult to buy in to this pretentiously noble cover for action of yours because if it were true you would have stood up and said as much to little billyboy as you do to me here. You know the equality and truth thingie academia pretend they believe in,.... confronting misinformation and bullying beleifs, those noble little principles & ethics portended to be of such importance here. No, this sadly is nothing more noble than false rhetoric. Every time I have stood up to little billy's BS it has been when he attacks another, I do so as viciously and in the same vain as he does, then fight the pretentious dogpile BS like this one is. So from where I sit, you get off on lecturing me but you can't come to do so for little billybadboy, is that about the gest of it? Truely ya that scared?
Keep painting it anyway you want, the picture is still the same. You don't walk your talk which I find rare for a Cunuck.
But if you don't like it, seriously, don't read it or pretend you will KF me. Above all don't pretend you read too fast when it takes a real concious movement to click on in the first place. You don't read that fast Phob . Again you wrestle the pig your gonna get dirty so don't think you can come in wearing a Panama suit w/ your British sense of stiff upper lip and stay clean lecturing me. You seem to have picked your side, you just didn't have all the logic nailed down as well as you should have before you stepped into it.
So eco warrior, eco nazi, eco communist, however you want to define yourself. Its stand up or shut up! Can't have it both ways. Next time I see little billy boyo dressing someone down, I expect you to be in there if your truly the noble man you claim there old timer. But you can tell me know you just talk trash to the garden newbies until we pray at the Alter of the Organic Pure? Would that be true? we can wait and see, I'm sure it will not be too long before he pops off on someone again. What is his record, 2 days?
But as far as being "behind the curve" in your neck of the woods, as you say? I have found when you are so far curved to the left or right , you can't be too much of a straight thinker,now can you?
I'll leave you with this excerpt from the same Mag that started this thread:
We Only Trust Experts If They Agree with Us: Scientific American Podcast
Tuesday, September 21, 2010
10:43 AM
http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=we-only-trust-experts-if-they-agree-10-09-18
We think we trust experts. But a new study finds that what really influences our opinions, more than listening to any expert, is our own beliefs.
Researchers told study subjects about a scientific expert who accepted climate change as real. Subjects who thought that commerce can be environmentally damaging were ready to accept the scientist as an expert. But those who came into the study believing that economic activity could not hurt the environment were 70 percent less likely to accept that the scientist really was an expert.
Then the researchers flipped the situation. They told different subjects that the same hypothetical scientist, with the same accreditation, was skeptical of climate change. Now those who thought that economic activity cannot harm the environment accepted the expert, and the other group was 50 percent less likely to believe in his expertise. The study was published in the Journal of Risk Research.
The investigators found similar results for various other issues, from nuclear waste disposal to gun control. Said one of the authors, People tend to keep a biased score of what experts believe, counting a scientist as an 'expert' only when that scientist agrees with the position they find culturally congenial."
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Give it a rest please. You've all now had your say to each other about how appalling the other person is and it's beginning to get tedious.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Unfortunately there is not a lot of discussion about gardening here anymore. That's especially true of threads that conatin certain nyms. Many people that used to chime in with reliable info have moved on, do in large part to the faith based diatribes.
wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Rick wrote:

The great majority of threads that I see are about gardening. The minority go off topic. Some of those get heated. When did it happen otherwise on usenet?
That's especially true of threads that conatin certain nyms.

How many of those who used to chime in are you in contact with? How do you know this is the reason they moved on?
David
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.