your thoughts on metric

[Morris Dovey]

| There are absolutely no valid reasons NOT to use metric. There are | plenty of people afraid of change. Use it steady for a few days | and you'll wonder why we did not change decades ago. We use it for | our money, we use it for some beverages.

I'd like to agree, but can't. I came up with a gizmo (photos at link below) that allows ShopBot users to zero all three axes to a jig or workpiece in less than a minute and a bunch of guys wanted 'em for their shops. The first customer was in Sweden so I figured it'd be cool to go metric...

Ok - I needed aluminum bar stock at _least_ 3/8" thick (1/2" would be better) and went to the catalog. No metric stock available - so ordered 1/2" x 6" x 72". Shrug.

Now I needed smaller stock thicker than 1/16" and wider than 1/2". Back to the catalog for 1/8" x 3/4" x 72". Shrug again. Told myself it wasn't a big deal, that no one would care what the actual measurements of these parts was, so system wasn't important.

Then I needed button head cap screws to attach the thin pieces to the edges of the thick one. Hmm - M5 x .8 x 12 (3mm key) are $14.27/C and #10-32 x 1/2 (1/8 key) are $7.76/C. At this point my enthusiasm for metric was beginning to fade a bit.

So I flipped to Allen wrenches. 3 mm hex keys were listed at $11.95/C and 1/8" hex keys were listed at $5.85/C. (I wrote 'em down)

On to spiral-flute bottoming taps - a #10-32 was listed at $8.20 and an M5 x .8 was $13.45 - I only needed two (I've learned never to order just one of a given tap size because that's /inviting/ Murphy to the party.)

I already have a set of fractional, numbered, and letter size drills (#10-32 needs a #21 drill for the tapped hole and a #9 for clearance hole) from Harbor Fright. I turned to look up the price on a but for an M5 tapped hole and realized that my handy char didn't provide any info as to what size bit I needed for /any/ metric tapped hole.

Added up the costs I /did/ know at that point, shrugged a last time, and picked up the phone to order everything in inches.

Would you have done differently?

(The software that goes with the gizmo has been written to automatically set itself up wo work in either inches or mm at runtime - I figured that I owed my metric friend at least that much consideration.)

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[Lew Hodgett]

I would have given the customer a choice along with the respective prices.

It becomes his choice.

He may have some very good reasons for needing metric.

Lew

[Edwin Pawlowski]

It works in 80% of the world. It CAN work here if we want it to.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

The problems you encountered were due to mixing. Metric stock is readily available outside the US and some places here but not very plentiful. If we made the switch universally, your problem would not exist. You made a good point as to why we should change to be compatible in a world economy.

In my case, I can't buy US made machines for our industry so everything is metric. Simple to work with.

[Morris Dovey]

Lew Hodgett wrote: | "Morris Dovey" wrote: | || The first customer was in Sweden so I figured it'd be || cool to go metric... | | | || Added up the costs I /did/ know at that point, shrugged a last || time, and picked up the phone to order everything in inches. | || Would you have done differently? | | I would have given the customer a choice along with the respective | prices. | | It becomes his choice. | | He may have some very good reasons for needing metric.

Perhaps, but he didn't tell me that he needed a device built with metric components. When I asked, he told me that his machine was normally set up to work in mm - which is what prompted me to make the software self-adjust at runtime.

He did get one other (unasked-for) consideration: because his location isn't far from salt water, the screws and probes that are part of the sets are all 18-8 stainless.

It'll still do exactly the job he wants it to do.

My point to Ed is that there's a significant cost disadvantage for Americans attempting to produce metric products in the USA.

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[Morris Dovey]

| The problems you encountered were due to mixing. Metric stock is | readily available outside the US and some places here but not very | plentiful. If we made the switch universally, your problem would | not exist. You made a good point as to why we should change to be | compatible in a world economy.

"Available outside the US" doesn't do much for me here in Iowa. :-(

If we made the switch universally, I'd have to replace more stuff in my shop than I'd be comfortable with - and I don't even want to think about reworking all my drawings, product specifications, part program software, and bills of materials. Even for a small operation like mine, it'd be difficult and expensive.

| In my case, I can't buy US made machines for our industry so | everything is metric. Simple to work with.

Hmm. [ light bulb just went on ] I could solve all my difficulties by outsourcing everything to some place where everything is metric. Simple indeed.

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[Mike O.]

Go buy a couple of metric tape measures and have at it. I think you could use whatever you like. You might have to replace bits and maybe other things but as far as measuring goes, what difference does it make as long as you always use the same thing? Of course for me, all of the code requirements are still in inches so I'd have some converting to do.

BTW, the scale on my Bies has both but the inch scale is on the top where you can almost see it under the top of the pointer. I kinda wish it was the other way around. I haven't spent the $15 for a replacement scale in inches yet but I may have to.

Mike O.

[asmurff]

Why change something that so many people understand and have the tools for in their boxes. I learned fractions (imperial) first, then in high school was taught metric as the wave of the future, that was 1970 to 1974 no waves yet, give it up and stick to what everyone knows. Before I get flamed by the metric mafia I will state I can do both and make most conversions in my head but prefer Imperial.

[asmurff]

But why must we replace bits, sockets, tape measures and all of our imperial sized tools? Just to be like the rest of the world? After 39 years of following my father around the world or bouncing around it myself ( we're both career military) I'll tell you I don't see anything they do that warrens changing. In the age of the internet if you want to change, order your tools aboard but don't force your ideas on the rest of us!!!!

[John Martin]

I've worked with both systems, and agree that the metric system is easier to use.

I've already got wrench and socket sets in US and metric sizes, so that's no problem. Oh, and Whitworth too - so I'm completely covered.

But - remember the adage about not changing horses in mid-stream?

I don't want to have to buy new taps and dies in metric sizes, except for those few I already have. Gets expensive when you add in pipe threads - although, from what I understand, even European pipe sizes are inch-based.

I don't want to have to buy new brace bits, Forstner bits and brad point bits in metric sizes to fit metric dowels, plugs and bolts.

Metal bits? I've already got #1-80, A-Z, fractional through 1" and some larger. Pretty good range of sizes, so all I have to do is convert from the chart for metric tap drills. But that won't work for things like dowel pins - so I guess I'd need sets of metric reamers as well as the drills.

Fence markings on my table saw would be fairly easy to replace. But the feedscrews and leadscrews on my lathe and milling machine are another matter. Same with the lathe change gears.

When I buy plywood or wallboard for house repairs, it's nice to buy sizes that fit those 12", 16" or 24" center spacings for joists, studs and rafters. Sure would be a PITA to have to trim metric sized sheets to fit. Same with dimensional lumber. It sure isn't much fun to add to old framing made with 2 x 4s that were 1-5/8" thick or 1-3/4" thick when those today are only 1-1/2".

Same goes for metalwork. I guess if I need a piece of bar stock or plate to replace or modify an old US sized piece I can always buy the next larger metric size and cut it down on the mill and surface grinder. But I'd rather not have to. Surface grinder - have to change the feedscrews and dials on that too.

I can buy new tapes, rules, micrometers, calipers, 1-2-3 blocks, etc. But, again, I'd rather not have to.

New dado blades, milling cutters, etc. The investment grows.

Maybe we should go all the way and change away from our archaic units of time, angle measurement, and so on. Put everything on base 10 systems. No more of this 24/7 stuff.

Yeah, it's a better system. It is easier. Use it all you want. Just pray that it doesn't become mandatory here in your lifetime - or mine.

John Martin

[Leif Thorvaldson]

======>Relax, guys! When the dems win the presidency and have the congress, all will finally be well!*G*

Leif

[Peter Huebner]

You got that bass ackwards. Many countries changed from imperial to metric. When I was a kid, there were still imperial nuts and bolts and tools in use in Germany. By the time I was a teen, they had disappeared. When I moved to New Zealand in the early 1980ies everybody was still talking inches and feet (so I converted) but by now I seem the only one still using inches for timber size , everybody else uses mm -- actually I use mm as measurement for doing my joinery, I just think to _order_ 4x1 and 6x2 etc.

Trust me, metric is a heck of a lot easier to use, and makes a lot more sense than fractions. One look at a metric ruler next to an imperial one will illustrate what I mean.

Of course I can appreciate that using fractions acts like a kind of mental aerobics to keep the grey matter working.

OT (because it's metalwork) but still relevant is my experience that metric threads work better than imperial ones. I have had a lot more trouble with imperial screws and bolts on machinery shaking/working loose than with metric. Coarse metric is finer and the pitch is different. Fine metric (as found on H/T bolts for instance) is even better still in demanding applications.

-P.

[Puckdropper]

John Martin wrote in news: [e-mail]:

See, now that's the problem. We've got two ways of measuring the same thing, and have to have seperate tools for each. I'm happy to stay with the US system, or if we could switch over to Metric it'd sure solve a lot of duplication problems.

No, it won't happen over night. My guess is it will take 3 or 4 generations to completely change over. There will still be a need for US sized tools though, for machinery such as steam locomotives and old combines that need to be worked on and not changed over for historic preservation reasons.

Take a bit of advice from a frazzled Physics student: Unit conversions are bad enough with one measurement system. Don't throw another one in!

Puckdropper

[J T]

Thu, Oct 11, 2007, 11:47pm (EDT+4) [e-mail] (Lee) doth sayeth: Your missing my point. I am talking about using metric in the current time for measuring...not replacing what we have now when it comes to tools

So say you. I'd have changed years ago, but can't find a reliable supplier of metric pencils.

JOAT "I'm an Igor, thur. We don't athk quethtionth." "Really? Why not?" "I don't know, thur. I didn't athk."

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Ask the companies that have not been able to sell their products and machines overseas because the other countries want metric. It may not affect you, but it certainly does affect some people. If you don't want to participate in a world economy, you don't have to.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Same reason people are learning to speak other languages. They want to be part of the rest of the world and reap benefits from it. Many schools are starting to teach Mandarin.

[dadiOH]

Accuracy? Lots of measuring devices are marked in 64s. Don't know if metric things are marked in part millimeters or not but if not, a mark would be 1/25.4".

I agree 10ths make more sense but I'm too old to change...I bought a fractional calculator.

[Mason Pan]

In plywood business ,four by eight feet is 1220X2440 mm in metric system . We sell 1220x2440 or 1250x2500 mm plywood / film faced plywood to Europe , USA and other countries .

[Leon]

IMHO it all sounds the same. Was that 250 Millimeters, Centimeters, etc.?

What is wrong with fractions? What do you get when you subtract 374 mm from 47 cm? What is half of 383 mm?

IMHO metric is simply a different distance but no easier.

[Leon]

I think we are smart enough. I think the rest of the world uses metric because they need something that they think is simpler. Is the rest of the world smart enough to use inches?