The specs for propagation of usenet news do not guarantee that the
order of messages received will be the same on different servers. In
fact a reading of RFC1036 implies the opposite to be much more likely.
In addition different people will use different news readers to sort
messages in different orders. So what seems to to be "no mistaking"
for one person will very likely be ust confusing to another person.
Your reference to RFC1036 is correct but... and I'll quote....
"This document defines the standard format for the interchange of
network News messages among USENET hosts. It updates and replaces
RFC-850, reflecting version B2.11 of the News program. This memo is
distributed as an RFC to make this information easily accessible to
the Internet community. It does not specify an Internet standard.
Distribution of this memo is unlimited."
Please note that it states "It does not specify an Internet standard." also
and therefore is ambiguous since the RFC starts out with "Standard for
Interchange of USENET Messages" - very confusing but your point is well
taken. Simply said, not all newsreaders and servers will stack and rack the
threads of a message in the same manner. I will never again rename a
specific thread and make a post.....;-)
You have a good memory. Back around 1966 I worked on the world's largest
computer systems at the time (SAGE) and we used a form of email then between
centers and radar sites that was unique to SAGE (Semi-Automatic Ground
Environment). Then about '69, I moved over to Autodin (Automatic Digital
Network) where email (as we know it) really took off. Course it was all text
messaging back then - and get this - all top-posting too! The screens were
for the most part, not screen's but teletype machines using Baudot 5 bit
code. While working at the underground in Omaha (SAC Command Center) we
jerry-rigged an IBM electric typewriter to replace the teletype. About 30
days later, IBM had a working Selectric on the SACC's system (SAC Command
I get a chuckle out of some of the comments made here about not knowing
anything of USENET......;-)
Thanks for the trip down memory lane....
Top posting is proper when (1) you're talking *about* the referenced
text, but not *in reply to* it, and (2) when the reader is blind and
using a screen reader, which starts at the top. Yes, they have to
hear the whole thread, over and over again, just to hear the new part
at the bottom. At least, that was what I used to hear from them.
Hopefully their software is smart enough to cope with that problem
Bottom posting is proper when the result reads like a conversation in
While bottom posting is the more common format, it only works when you
trim the included message. It's amazing how many people just copy the
whole huge message and only add a tiny bit. It used to be that the
news servers would reject messages that had more referenced text than
new text. Sigh, those were the days.
When done right, you end up with interleaved text - each part of the
original message you're replying to (trimmed to the minimum
necessary), has your reply under it, followed by the next bit of the
original message, then your reply to that, etc; and most of the post
is new text.
That is the major problem. I get very tired of having to scroll down half a
page or more to read a response. I already know what has been previously
said, and if I don't, I can look. Bottom posting forces me to look at
useless information and actively skip past it. It is not at all unusual to
have a full page of text with a one line reply underneath it. It is far
easier to have software that eliminates the problem then try to train
everyone to become a skilled editor, or to give a crap. Top posting is
slowly taking over, for the better.
It's especially useful when one does a newsgroup archive search and finds a
long response. I especially love starting and the bottom and reading
backwards...it's so efficient. Truth be told, the biggest problem isn't
bottom- or top-posting, it's that everyone doesn't do the same thing. So,
we end up with the worst case, messages that combine both.
On 4/30/2006 1:29 AM CW mumbled something about the following:
> + See, a lot of us still do it right.
Top posting is proper when (1) you're talking *about* the referenced
text, but not *in reply to* it, and (2) when the reader is blind and
[ rest snipped for brevity ]
With a proper newsreader configured properly (OE is not a proper news
reader and is barely a proper email client), one doesn't have to scroll
through the message. If you need a reference to what was being replied,
you expand the compressed section (where the + is).
Part of the reason for bottom posting is because USENET doesn't
guarantee delivery of messages and may deliver messages in the wrong
order. Let's say for example, my news server didn't get your earlier
message, but it got DJ's reply. The logical flow of the message would
make sense (since I never saw the original message). Reading from the
bottom doesn't, especially if my news server missed SEVERAL messages in
the thread before I got to read one.
that I responded to and called him a village idiot
for making the post. I changed the subject line from "THIS IS NO JOKE! IT
REALLY WORKS" to Village Idiot. Most newsreaders do show the thread with
responses to the initial post under it in a directory structure. Obviously
some do not or the individuals have different settings. No big deal really
but it does piss me off that someone such as Larry had to take the holier
than thou attitude.
So for your reading pleasure and for all those defenders of the
spammers...here's the post that started the ass-kickin contest that you
couldn't associate my one-liner with........ PS - I still think he's the
village idiot and I really don't care what the spam defenders think. To
them, place me in your kill file - please. With fellow wreckers like them -
who needs enemy's....
Make easy Money! NO SCAM!!! Please read!
NEED QUICK EASY CASH???
EASY MONEY!!! NO SCAM PLEASE READ
Turn $6.00 into $60,000...read this to find out how!!!
READING THIS COULD CHANGE YOUR LIFE!!!
I found this on a bulletin board like this one and decided to try it. A
little while back, I was browsing through a newsgroup, just like you
are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could
make thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial investment
of $6.00! So I thought, "Yeah right, this must be a scam", but like
most of us, I was curious, so I kept reading. Anyway, it said that you
would need to send $1.00 to each of the 6 names and address stated in
the article. You then place your own name and address in the bottom of
the list at #6, and post the article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There
are thousands) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it over, and
talking to a few people first, I thought about trying it. I figured
"what have I got to lose except 6 stamps and $6.00, right?" Then I
invested the measly $6.00 (I use the word "measly" because $6
really is measly compared to the money I have made through the initial
investment). Well GUESS WHAT!!... Within 7 days, I started getting
money in the mail! I
was shocked! I figured it would end soon, but the money just kept
coming in. In my first week, I made about $25.00. By the end of the
second week I had made a total of over $1,000.00! In the third week I
had over $10,000.00 and it's still growing. This is now my fourth
week and I have made just over $42,000.00 and it's still coming in
rapidly. It's certainly worth $6.00, and 6 stamps, I have spent more
than that on the lottery!! Let me tell you how this works
and most importantly, why it works.... Also, make sure you print a copy
of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you
need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that
you will start making more money than you thought possible by doing
something so easy! Suggestion: Read this entire message carefully!
(print it out or download it.) Follow the simple directions and watch
the money come in! It's easy. It's legal. And, your investment is
only $6.00 (Plus postage)
IMPORTANT: This is not a rip-off; it is not indecent; it is not
illegal; and it is virtually no risk - it really works!!!! If all of
the following instructions are adhered to, you will receive
PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or
more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful
because of the honesty and integrity of the
participants. Please continue it's success by carefully adhering to
the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail Order business.
In this business your product is not solid and tangible,
it's a service. You are in the business of developing Mailing Lists.
Many large corporations are happy to pay big bucks for quality lists.
However, the money made from the mailing lists is secondary to the
income which is made from people like you and me asking to be included
in that list.
Here are the 4 easy steps to success:
STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each
piece of paper
"PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST."
Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of
paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent
thievery). Next, place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal
them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of
paper stating the phrase "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST.",
your name and address, and a $1.00 bill. What you are doing is creating
a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate
service and you are
paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little
worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the
U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed
legal! Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses: #1) Damon
1055 Brookfield Dr.
Medina, OH 44256 #2) Krysta Johnson
9821 Camino Villa #1024
San Antonio, TX 78254 #3) Daniel Torres
2727 W. Oak Ridge Rd.
Orlando Fl. 32809 #4) Elizabeth Ripley
211 Lanier Drive
Statesboro, GA 30458 #5) Kim Pepin
1056 Centennial Cres.
Corbeil , Ontario, Canada
P0H 1K0 #6) Jonnerson Liew
No. 27, Tanah Emas, Jalan penampang,
Miles 3, P.O. Box 88300
Kota Kinabalu, Sabah, Malaysia.
STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the
other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR Name as
number 6 on the list.
STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as
close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at
least 200 newsgroups. (I think there are close to 32,000+)
All you need is 200, but remember, the more you post, the more money
you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to
Title 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of
these steps for yourself and, whenever you need money, you can use it
again, and again.
PLEASE REMEMBER that this program remains successful because of the
honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully
adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are
of integrity, the program will continue and the money that so many
others have received will come your way.
NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either
on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. This
VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service.
(Also, it might be a good idea to wrap the $1 bill in dark paper to
reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the
directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for their
participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your name will
move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1
position you will be receiving thousands of dollars in CASH!!! What an
opportunity for only $6.00 ($1.00 for each of the first six people
Send it now, add your own name to the list and you're in business!
DIRECTIONS FOR HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS
Step 1) You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your own
posting. Simply put your cursor at the beginning of this letter and
drag your cursor to the bottom of this document, and select 'copy'
from the edit menu. This will copy the entire letter into the
Step 2) Open a blank 'notepad' file and place your cursor at the
top of the blank page. From the 'edit' menu select 'paste'.
This will paste a copy of the letter into notepad so that you can add
name to the list.
Step 3) Save your new notepad file as a .txt file. If you want to do
your postings in different settings, you'll always have this file to
go back to.
Step 4) Use Netscape or Internet explorer and try searching for various
newsgroups (on-line forums, message boards, chat sites, discussions,
Step 5) Visit these message boards and post this article as a new
message by highlighting the text of this letter and selecting paste
from the edit menu. Fill in the Subject, this will be the header
that everyone sees as they scroll through the list of postings in a
particular group, click the post message button. You're done with
your first one!
All you have to do is jump to different newsgroups and post away, after
you get the hang of it, it will take about 30 seconds for each
newsgroup! REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY
YOU WILL MAKE!! BUT YOU HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 200
That's it! You will begin receiving money from around the world
within days! You may eventually want to rent a P.O.Box due to the large
amount of mail you will receive. If you wish to stay anonymous, you can
invent a name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it. JUST MAKE
SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.
Now the WHY part: Out of 200 postings, say I receive only 5 replies (a
very low example). So then I made $5.00 with my name at #6 on the
letter. Now, each of the 5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the
MINIMUM 200 postings, each with my name at #5 and only 5 persons
respond to each of the original 5, that is another $25.00 for me, now
those 25 each make 200 MINIMUM posts with my name at #4 and only 5
replies each, I will bring in an additional $125.00! Now, those 125
persons turn around and post the MINIMUM 200 with my name at #3 and
only receive 5 replies each, I will make an additional $626.00! OK, now
here is the fun part, each of those 625
persons post a MINIMUM 200 letters with my name at #2 and they each
only receive 5 replies, that just made me $3,125.00!!! Those 3,125
persons will all deliver this message to 200 newsgroups with my name at
#1 and if still ONLY 5 persons per 200 newsgroups react I will receive
$15,625,00! With an original investment of only $6.00! AMAZING! When
your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest posting in
the newsgroups, and send out another
$6.00 to names on the list, putting your name at number 6 again. And
start posting again. The thing to remember is do you realize that
thousands of people all over the world are joining the internet and
reading these articles everyday?, JUST LIKE YOU are now!! So, can you
afford $6.00 and see if it really works?? I think so... People have
said, "what if the plan is played out and no one sends you the money?
So what! What are the chances of that happening when there are tons of
new honest users and new honest people who are joining the Internet and
everyday and are willing to give it a try? Estimates are at 20,000 to
50,000 new users, every day, with thousands of those joining the actual
Internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY
and this will really work!!!
Please keep this going!!! It's incredible... We can all help each
other with some of our financial problems!!! Thanks and have yourself a
I don't think Larry's response was inappropriate.
Your assumption of how everyone else sees the 'net was the funny part!
Rarely do people completely change the header of a post, respond to it, and
delete ALL the original post, then expect people to understand what was
And, of course, the correct public response to a spammer is none.
They are either looking for a response (more troolish behaviour, but
still) in which case the correct response is to deny them, or they are
trully spamming, in which case there's no way in hell they're going to
see the outraged response and it's not only a waste of time but makes
the outraged one look like an idiot.
In thiscase, given that the same spam is showing up in every newsgroup
I visit, it's most certainly the latter.
The Standard Advice: Ignore, fliter.
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