If somebody wants to duplicate my investment in the necessary equipment and supplies as well as the additional manpower investment in field in what the manufacturer appears to consider mandatory training of my personnel (Or is that just another way of defining an apprentice program?), they are welcome to do it.
After making that investment, they are welcome to compete for business in my market area since we will both be on relatively equal footing.
Happens every day.
Lew
Rookie.
My guess is the freedom to screw up and just maybe make a $ while doing it.
Lew Hodgett, PE
Well said, Lew. However, this town of 70,000 with a total population if you include the whole county, of maybe 125,000 people, will not support two fabricating shops. In that respect, the manyfacturers look at me as if I am a franchise. Anybody who would gear up to make the neccessary investments, would know that there wouldn't be room for two. If somebody from the next town over (London) called me for a quote, I'd refer them to a fabricator I know who will do a good job at a good price.... in London. He paid to play, he ante'd up, he spend the time to learn the ins and outs, he's every bit as good at it as I am (maybe better).
We have one Honda dealer here and I can't for the life of me imagine two.
r
Huh? Who has asked you to be a "phylantropical institution"?
Look, moron, I don't want to compete with you, and it will be a cold day in Hell before I buy anything from you. What I want is to be able to buy a product at a fair price. That's all. But since the stuff is so delicate and fragile and likely to burst into flames at the drop of a hat, I don't want anything to do with it at this point. You've turned me off of it entirely by pointing out at length what utter crap it is.
So you cut off your nose to spite your face and now you're whining about it.
In other words you benefit from lack of competition.
And this is a problem for you because?
Uh huh. Sure.
Why is it that you see the only alternatives to be competing with you or hiring you?
Hey Willi-
I haven't priced out Corian lately, but if Rob says it's directly competing with Granite, I know you can get a granite slab for DIY applications. Found a place a while back (though I don't have the link anymore) that will ship you a rough slab (with a finished top) complete with instructions for machining it using woodworking tools. (IIRC, it required a circular saw with an abrasive blade installed, and some masonry bits) Still too expensive for my budget, but it might be just the ticket for you. Probably find it locally if you've got a headstone carver near you as well.
Probably have to use a top-mount sink if you go that route, but at least it's available- and it's really nice.
J. Clarke gurgled:
You couldn't compete with me. You don't have the parts. (Double entendre there, Mr. Clarke.)
Holy cow! He gets it! People benefit from lack of competition. Real or imagined.
Hehehehehe.... gawd, you're easy....
r
Granite and eStone are more money. The 'direct' competition is in terms of space. Something is going to end up on those kitchen and bathroom cabinets. Being it custom laminate or semiprecious stone, real butcher-block or stainless steel. I do not consider post-formed laminate, by the blank, competition; I don't go there.
The competition is for space and if you look at my web-site, you'll see that I have those bases covered too. Solid surface is a nice stepping stone between custom laminate and granite/eStone.
When buying slabs of granite, make sure you get a good grade, because many 'look' the same, but can be full of fissures. Blue Pearl, for instance, can range from $ 900 to $ 1900 for a 5 x 10 slab from the same supplier. If you hang a sheet, and hit it with a mallet, it should ring like big bell. If it doesn't, run like hell.
Maybe Mr, Clarke should look at concrete. That he can buy anywhere, assuming he doesn't open his mouth first.
rCan't you feel the love?
Forget paint, can I fly it?
Can I, can I, can I, can I??????
Well sure, Rob- but he doesn't want to buy the services of an installer, and can't buy the product. Looking at a different product might be the way to go, even if it costs more- I know that if it were me, I wouldn't hire someone for a DIY job, no matter how much better that pro may be- so I hope you're not taking it as an attempt to lose you business.
Well, that's good advice, and something I didn't know. But will they hang it for you to do a test like that?
Prometheus wrote: [snip]
I suppose. They want you to see the slab before they cut it for you anyway..soooo. I have learned to trust my supplier. He doesn't buy bad sheets. The granite supplier I use, moves all his slabs by grabbing the top edge with a gripper clamp and overhead crane. A whack of a rubber mallet gives them a bit of idea what to expect when they put it down on the beam saw. That transition from vertical to horizontal always makes them nervous. So does the thought of a slab coming apart inside the bay of the CNC. (That thing operates practically under water.)
I bought and installed a Swanstone countertop for my bathroom vanity about 4 years ago. They were willing to sell to anybody, at least at the time. The material resembles Corian in appearance. I think it has quartz in it and may be tougher. I didn't have to do any seams or anything fancy for a bathroom, though I did get the integral sink with backsplash and I did have to cut it to fit. I cut it with a jigsaw but a regular jigsaw blade would have no teeth left after cutting about 5 inches. (It would still cut even with rounded over nubs on the blade, but really slowly.) Note also that the sheet is only 1/4 inch thick with a thicker edge in front and occasional ribbing. I guess it's stronger than Corian and doesn't need to be 1/2 inch thick. I'm happy with the result.
You might also consider installing soapstone which is supposed to be easily worked with woodworking tools but is less porous than granite. (No personal experience.)
(I wouldn't put Corian in a kitchen that I was planning to use. It's too sensitive to heat. My mother-in-law's Corian has a huge crack in it where a hot pan was set. I heard that the instructions tell you not to put boiling water in your Corian sink---so how do you drain your pasta?)
You may not want to accept it, but manufacturers and distributors are perfectly within their rights to choose their desired method of going to market. Sure, sure, they are protecting their profits to a degree, but they are also steering clear of high risk customers. If the product requires special skills to use/install they avoid a great deal of trouble (read COST) by restricting sales to a network of professionals.
The typical wrecker is way above average as a do-it-yourselfer and you have to remember that most people are not like most of us. These manufacturers are considering the mainstream do-it-yourselfer, whose skills and experience are way below yours, and worse, way below what he thinks they are.
So here's the scenario: Jimbo talks Robatoy into selling him a countertop uninstalled, no warranty. Jimbo gets his countertop home (probably asked Rob to deliver it because he doesn't have truck) and starts the install. He exercises Rob's telephone and patience for three days with questions, requests to borrow tools and finally to come over and help on Sunday afternoon during the game. Finally, because his homemade cabinets aren't level the countertop breaks. Jimbo calls Rob and says "the countertop was defective, it broke". Rob says, "That's unheard of, they don't break for no reason, and besides, you pestered me for weeks until I agreed to sell the thing to you with NO WARRANTY". Jimbo says " You're a liar and a cheat, and I'm going to tell everyone I know that you're a dishonest businessman". Jimbo then proceeds to use the power of the internet to unjustly slander Rob's business and the manufacturer as well. That kind of press could put a small business under.
This happens all the time in every industry. As a do-it-yourselfer, I try very hard to learn and use the methods and tools a qualified pro would use, and I suspect you are the same way. But for every one of us, there are ten Jimbo's out there.
I'll bet the pros on this board could relate a hundred or more stories very similar to this one.
Well put, Tom. Excellent.
Thanks for that.
Rob
And considering all the hoops that the authorized installers seem to be saying that you have to jump through just to keep it from falling apart as it sits there it must be unbelievably fragile.
You seem to be missing the point. My request, and others have voiced the same, is for there to be a source for solid surface material for those who feel competent to use same without any liability to the seller or to you at all. Get it. No, I repeat, no liability to the manufacturer or to any local installers. None.
Now if I screw it up, how is that going to affect the reputation of the material? If anything it would improve the status of the pro as a source for installed countertops. Others would see that the "amateur" messed up the job in his house, so they better go with a pro. Of course, I don't see that happening, but whatever.
We are not talking about selling to those that are in the business and too cheap to go through the liscencing process. We are talking about people who want to use the stuff in their own homes. So discount to the liscenced pro and sell at a higher price to the amateur. That's what everybody else does.
I can walk into the electrical supply house, buy a hundred amp subpanel, install a feeder breaker in my main, wire to and install the subpanel, wire as many circuits from it as the code allows, and the only requirement is that I do it to all to code. How I learn the code is my business, I don't have to pay Square D a fee for that. A lot more riding on my doing that right than installing a countertop.
My original contention is the same, they do it to keep the prices up. Just like Sony refused to allow Beta, a superior format, to be used by other VCR manufacturers. And when VHS came along, an inferior format, but available, Beta was history.
Frank
"J. Clarke" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news2.newsguy.com:
How about buying a different, substitute good? Stone, quartz, high pressure laminate, even mahogany?
bowing back out...
Patriarch
Not hardly. If Rob were in the business and was good at it, he would be out installing countertops all day instead of posting on rec.woodworking. After all, he is protected by his supplier so he should have plenty of business.
Frank
On Nov 20, 4:09 pm, Frank Boettcher wrote: [snip] " I
WTF??? Now I can't have a coffee and spend a few moments on line rattling your cage?...or Clarke's?
You are running out of ideas here, bro'. And yes, I am very busy. And no, I won't sell you any material.
It is 7;30 PM.. I just finished my supper, and I am off to the shop again to get some things ready for tomorrow. I'll check back with you in 2 1/2 hours when I have my milk and cookies.
btw.. I have to build the countertops before I can install them. I'll be installing 2 of them Thursday and Firday. IF that's okay with you Frank.
LOL
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