We simply do not want anybody to expose the product in an inferior way.
It is not good for the product's image. (This is aside from the fact
that the polyisocyanide
and other nasty stuff in the adhesives/hardener is very nasty stuff
prior to reaction.)
That is simply not true. Any countertop shop can buy the strips to edge
their counters or
for back splashes. Most will sell the material wide enough to make
Now THAT is a crock. The manufacturers do not approach this from an
Read my lips: The product must be fabricated and installed by somebody
skilled and trained enough
in order for the manufacturer to underwrite the warranty. It is risk
management as well as a way to assure that the application of the
product is within the guidelines of the product's technical
specification. Its structural strength limits the application as well.
The fire rating comes into play. If Mr. Clarke wants to build a
fireplace mantle out of it, and it collapses into the fire,
the liability will not be assumed by the manufacturer. You, sir, are
simply not qualified to make judgements as to when and when not to use
that product in any specific application.
You forgot one. Prove to me you know how to handle toilet paper and
I'll sell you a porkchop.
Maybe somebody else wants to chase your red herrings and salute your
I will not.
Someone as rational as Rick? I'd sign his tests in a heartbeat. Then
I'd take a truck to Rick's and put on three shifts of CNC operators and
make certain products of my design out of solid surface material which
would yield a substantial amount of eBay sales within a year. (I'd set
it all up myself, but there's only one of me.)
*which reminds me, I need somebody to turn me 2 pieces 18" diameter x
6" thick out of maple.*
I pay well.
For further info:
On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 12:10:18 -0800, Robatoy wrote:
You keep claiming this. Maybe if you claim it long enough somebody will
believe you. What you do not want is for someone to undercut your price.
Care to provide a link to an MSDS for a solid surface adhesive/hardener
thata contains "polyisocyanide"?
And how about large pieces for use in something other than countertops?
In other words somebody who paid the manufacturer for the privilege. And
once again what is the objection to selling it to someone who does not
want or need a warranty?
Uh huh. If concrete manufacturers had had that attitude Fallingwater
would never have been built.
The same is true for pine. I guess that we should restrict distribution
of that to "authorized installers" as well.
And you claim that you are not "elitist". So where did you get your
engineering degree smart boy?
And are you now asserting that your wonderful solid surface is such a
fire hazard that it can't be used in an application in which a piece of
pine will serve adequately?
Can you say non-sequitur? Now address the issue smart boy.
In other words you don't have a clue how to counter the argument.
Yeah, but you see, since you kicked it in this scenario you're not
around to "sign his tests". You do comprehend "kicked it" do you not? In
this scenario you've passed on, you've ceased to be, you've expired and
gone to meet your maker, you are a late solid surface fabricator, you're a
stiff, bereft of life, you rest in peace, if you hadn't spilled the
polyisocyanide and glued yourself to a countertop you'd be pushing up
daisies, you've rung down the curtain and joined the Choir Invisible, you
are an ex-solid surface fabricator.
But I find it interesting that you'd "sign his tests in a heartbeat"
without first requiring that he actually undergo them. Looks to me like
you're admitting that it's a buddy network and not something based on
But you see, you kicked it, so you don't get to do any of that, and
furthermore, note what you just said, you'd do it to put a buck in your
own pocket. Have you ever done _anything_ in your life for any reason
other than to make a buck?
It is now obvious that your sole goal is to perpetuate an argument
based on what you think is right in that limited mind of yours.
For a while you had me tricked into thinking that you were open to
It seems that I have wasted my time and I will no longer indulge you.
Have a nice day.
PS Yes, I do have a degree in engineering. You?
On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 19:24:53 -0800, Robatoy wrote:
Right and wrong don't enter into it. This is not about morality, it is
about manufacturers of one product treating that product very differently
in the market from every other kind of product in that market.
I am, do you have any to present that isn't equal justification for
restricting the sale of _any_ construction material?
Issuing empty arguments in defense of your own financial interests is
always a waste of time. Next time you're tempted to try it remember this.
If you are actually done with your long-winded apologetics for the
solid-surface industry then I'm having a very nice day.
Georgia Tech '79. Now what's a smart boy like you doing installing
counters for a living?
J. Clarke wrote:
> Georgia Tech '79.
> Now what's a smart boy like you doing installing
> counters for a living?
My guess is the freedom to screw up and just maybe make a $ while
Lew Hodgett, PE
<snipped some stuff>
Local cabinet and countertop maker was our "prototype" shop. That is
whenever we had something new we wanted to try out on a machine we
would place it in his shop and let him try to wear it out. Would stop
by every so often to evaluate the condition of the machine(s) and talk
to the operators to get opinions. Also had the opportunity to spend a
lot of time with the solid surface fabricators, mostly young guys,
older guys seemed to stay with the cabinets.
He also would give us sink cutouts and scrap pieces to play with.
My conclusion, it is not without some need for skill and knowledge and
some specialty equipment, but not rocket science and certainly not
outside of the abilities of a good woodworker.
You might notice that I said I wish I could at least buy it without
warranty and take the risk myself. If the manufacturer is so worried
about the potential problems, and they did occur, that would be a way
to avoid the risk.
You are absolutely right in saying that it isn't rocket science. It is
all common sense...and therein lies the rub. Common sense is not
common. My common sense took me 20 years to accumulate and I still
encounter head-scratchers. A 'thinking' woodworker would not have any
problems making a countertop..assuming he applies all the rules from
the stained glass community as well..stuff like inside corners must
have ample radius. All stress risers must be smooth and polished.
Seams must be 3" away from any corners. Cook-top inside corners must be
doubled up with bevelled plates. When making front edges, the strip on
the front edge must be very smooth and dropped into a very smooth
rabbet. Clamping must be done with spring clamps, about 40 for a
10-foot run.... over clamping will starve the joint. Seams must be
dead-nuts vertically as well as the faces must be accurate. The amount
of pressure on the seam when adhering must be within a certain range,
over-pressure starves the joint, under-pressure looks terrible. Never
screw down to the cabinets, it must float. Allow 1/4" per 120" for
expansion. Never use a belt sander on a seam. Do not run seams through
a sink or cook-top cut-out or over a dishwasher. Line the cook-top
cutout with heavy gauge aluminum heatsink. Always use a holesaw with
very sharp teeth to cut holes for the taps. I know I am probably
forgetting a dozen other 'musts'...but you get to figure them out over
the next 20 years like I did. Stuff like router-bit speed and
feed-rates when making the rabbet for a professional looking edge. We
haven't even started to talk about undermounting sinks in a variety of
ways. Then, when you're all done, you get to sand the whole
thing...evenly..no patterns from the sanding path... no
Polevaulting isn't rocket science either. Try it sometime.
On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:01:03 -0800, Robatoy wrote:
Suppose he doesn't do all that? Then what? Does the universe collapse
into a point singularity? Does the counter explode? Does he get cancer?
Does the cat turn into an 8 foot tall monster and eat him?
If somebody was likely to die or be seriously injured if one screwed up
the installation of a countertop then there might be some justice to your
viewpoint, but as things stand it seems like you're saying "If you try
this then you might screw up so don't try". One could say the same thing
about just about anything else in life from marriage to driving to making
Compare and constrast the worst likely outcome of a screwed up attempt at
pole vaulting and a screwed up attempt at installing your own solid
surface and then tell me if you think that this was really an apt analogy.
I was illustrating that some things aren't as simple as they at first
appear.... nothing more, nothing less. If I had followed the alleged
analogy to some sort of conclusion, I'd have specified that the
components of the analogy had been executed successfully.
....mmmm I'm still trying to process an 8-foot cancerous cat exploding
in the vortex of a black hole.
basically my realtor would have me believe the same things, that i
don't have the knowledge, experience or common sense to sell / buy my
own home. Therefore i should pay him $15K to do it for me.
First house i ever purchased, i bought that line of logic. Next time i
think i will try it myself.
If realtors had the same lock on the market that some installers have i
would be pretty torqued.
on the other hand i have no interest in trying to install a new
windshield on my car, so i don't really care that i can't run down to
the Glassborg and pick up a new windshield and tube of caulk. Some
things are worth paying to have done right.
I haven't priced out Corian lately, but if Rob says it's directly
competing with Granite, I know you can get a granite slab for DIY
applications. Found a place a while back (though I don't have the
link anymore) that will ship you a rough slab (with a finished top)
complete with instructions for machining it using woodworking tools.
(IIRC, it required a circular saw with an abrasive blade installed,
and some masonry bits) Still too expensive for my budget, but it
might be just the ticket for you. Probably find it locally if you've
got a headstone carver near you as well.
Probably have to use a top-mount sink if you go that route, but at
least it's available- and it's really nice.
Granite and eStone are more money. The 'direct' competition is in terms
Something is going to end up on those kitchen and bathroom cabinets.
Being it custom laminate or semiprecious stone, real butcher-block or
I do not consider post-formed laminate, by the blank, competition; I
don't go there.
The competition is for space and if you look at my web-site, you'll see
that I have those bases covered too. Solid surface is a nice stepping
stone between custom laminate and granite/eStone.
When buying slabs of granite, make sure you get a good grade, because
many 'look' the same, but can be full of fissures. Blue Pearl, for
instance, can range from $ 900 to $ 1900 for a 5 x 10 slab from the
same supplier. If you hang a sheet, and hit it with a mallet, it should
ring like big bell. If it doesn't, run like hell.
Maybe Mr, Clarke should look at concrete. That he can buy anywhere,
assuming he doesn't open his mouth first.
Can't you feel the love?
Well sure, Rob- but he doesn't want to buy the services of an
installer, and can't buy the product. Looking at a different product
might be the way to go, even if it costs more- I know that if it were
me, I wouldn't hire someone for a DIY job, no matter how much better
that pro may be- so I hope you're not taking it as an attempt to lose
Well, that's good advice, and something I didn't know. But will they
hang it for you to do a test like that?
I suppose. They want you to see the slab before they cut it for you
I have learned to trust my supplier. He doesn't buy bad sheets.
The granite supplier I use, moves all his slabs by grabbing the top
edge with a gripper clamp and overhead crane. A whack of a rubber
mallet gives them a bit of idea what to expect when they
put it down on the beam saw. That transition from vertical to
horizontal always makes them nervous.
So does the thought of a slab coming apart inside the bay of the CNC.
(That thing operates practically under water.)
I bought and installed a Swanstone countertop for my bathroom vanity
about 4 years ago. They were willing to sell to anybody, at least at
the time. The material resembles Corian in appearance. I think it has
quartz in it and may be tougher. I didn't have to do any seams or
anything fancy for a bathroom, though I did get the integral sink with
backsplash and I did have to cut it to fit. I cut it with a jigsaw but
a regular jigsaw blade would have no teeth left after cutting about 5
inches. (It would still cut even with rounded over nubs on the blade,
but really slowly.) Note also that the sheet is only 1/4 inch thick
with a thicker edge in front and occasional ribbing. I guess it's
stronger than Corian and doesn't need to be 1/2 inch thick. I'm happy
with the result.
You might also consider installing soapstone which is supposed to be
easily worked with woodworking tools but is less porous than granite.
(No personal experience.)
(I wouldn't put Corian in a kitchen that I was planning to use. It's
too sensitive to heat. My mother-in-law's Corian has a huge crack in
it where a hot pan was set. I heard that the instructions tell you not
to put boiling water in your Corian sink---so how do you drain your
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