Solid Counter top for the DIY

Solid surface producers liscence their

Frank

It simply doesn't lend itself to DIY-ers. The distributors will only sell to certified fabricators. There are some polyester based fly-by-nights who'll take anybody's money, but the reputable 100% acrylic products such as Wilsonart Gibraltar, Corian, Staron and Meganite insist on being able to extend their 10-year warranties. That includes expert fabrication AND installation.

Adhesive chemistry and dust control are just some of the issues which are simply not in the realm of an amateur.

Besides, those of us who have dedicated a lot of time and money to become experts won't take well to some distributor 'back-dooring' product to the end user. We would turf that product out on its ass in a heartbeat. The distributors know that and therefore would rather deal with us. A position I wholeheartedly support.

r

Price fixing is the last thing we're concerned about. Making a worth-while profit is everybody's right. If we can't make a decent buck, we won't promote the product. Distributors know that. It is, however, a small reason to support us. The expertise is what

Got to love this part: Corian-TYPE of countertop. Their Dovae product isn't too shabby, but their house-brand is likely polyester (as in Bondo autobody filler?) and I know that Formica is polyester. Nowhere does one see the reputable products. Here's another 'treat': glue & gun ($65. ea.) pallet & cradle charge ($125) shipping ($175 - $300) depending on destination. (Is it just me, or am I looking at $ 500.00 here.)

I wonder how they would deal with a cooktop cut-out. I also wonder who you'd call if the top broke after installation. (A pretty serious probability with polyester tops.)

FWIW

And how much do you make a year installing solid surface?

Thanks Frank

I Googled them but I also heard about a person would was unable to even get samples from them. I'd be interested but I'd like to find someone who has used them.

Willi

I've watched the process and especially in my case a simple straight run of about ten feet, it's not really that difficult. DEFINITELY not as difficult as making the cabinets. There is always the chance that you'll do things incorrectly but that is always the case with a DIY. It's not like the mistake will be lethal!!!!

Since you make your living doing it I understand that you like things as they are.

Willi

Local cabinet and countertop maker was our "prototype" shop. That is whenever we had something new we wanted to try out on a machine we would place it in his shop and let him try to wear it out. Would stop by every so often to evaluate the condition of the machine(s) and talk to the operators to get opinions. Also had the opportunity to spend a lot of time with the solid surface fabricators, mostly young guys, older guys seemed to stay with the cabinets.

He also would give us sink cutouts and scrap pieces to play with.

My conclusion, it is not without some need for skill and knowledge and some specialty equipment, but not rocket science and certainly not outside of the abilities of a good woodworker.

You might notice that I said I wish I could at least buy it without warranty and take the risk myself. If the manufacturer is so worried about the potential problems, and they did occur, that would be a way to avoid the risk.

Frank

You are absolutely right in saying that it isn't rocket science. It is all common sense...and therein lies the rub. Common sense is not common. My common sense took me 20 years to accumulate and I still encounter head-scratchers. A 'thinking' woodworker would not have any problems making a countertop..assuming he applies all the rules from the stained glass community as well..stuff like inside corners must have ample radius. All stress risers must be smooth and polished. Seams must be 3" away from any corners. Cook-top inside corners must be doubled up with bevelled plates. When making front edges, the strip on the front edge must be very smooth and dropped into a very smooth rabbet. Clamping must be done with spring clamps, about 40 for a

Polevaulting isn't rocket science either. Try it sometime.

r.

I could tell you what I make fabricating and installing solid surface, but then I would have to shoot you. It is THAT much of a secret.

So you _do_ have a profit motive for maintaining the status quo. You do realize that that makes everything you say suspect.

Suppose he doesn't do all that? Then what? Does the universe collapse into a point singularity? Does the counter explode? Does he get cancer? Does the cat turn into an 8 foot tall monster and eat him?

If somebody was likely to die or be seriously injured if one screwed up the installation of a countertop then there might be some justice to your viewpoint, but as things stand it seems like you're saying "If you try this then you might screw up so don't try". One could say the same thing about just about anything else in life from marriage to driving to making pukey ducks.

Compare and constrast the worst likely outcome of a screwed up attempt at pole vaulting and a screwed up attempt at installing your own solid surface and then tell me if you think that this was really an apt analogy.

J. Clarke wrote: [snipped forbrevity]

I was illustrating that some things aren't as simple as they at first appear.... nothing more, nothing less. If I had followed the alleged analogy to some sort of conclusion, I'd have specified that the components of the analogy had been executed successfully.

....mmmm I'm still trying to process an 8-foot cancerous cat exploding in the vortex of a black hole.

Why does that make everything I say suspect? I have every right to protect the business I have built up. And as long as I have the commercial clout to make the distributors see things my way, I will use it. If you begrudge me that, what does that make you?

Suspicious of everything you say.

On Nov 17, 5:51 pm, "CW" piped up and chirped:

messagenews: snipped-for-privacy@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

things my way, I will use

I was thinking more along the lines of un-American. Free enterprise and all that.

Because you have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

Yes, you do, and that is the problem--one wonders how much of what you say is in fact addressing real problems and how much of it is putting up a smokescreen to protect your business.

Human?

I'm sorry, but I don't see how a few DIY counter installers are going to harm your business any more than do-it-yourself furniture makers are harming Stickley. If a DIYer can't get solid surface he's not going to come to you for an installation, he's just going to not use solid surface.

messagenews: snipped-for-privacy@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

things my way, I will use

If you believed in free enterprise then you wouldn't want to have a protected market.

True. Once the style changes to something else (it always does), you will see it on the open market just to maintain sales.

On Nov 17, 7:00 pm, "J. Clarke" wrote: [snip].

That is *if* you assume that the protection is because of profits and price. It is not. The manufacturers' warranties include fabrication and installation. If something goes wrong during 10 years (and often beyond), it is covered. In many cases when the home-owner screws up (a red-hot cast iron frying pan, for instance) the warranty is still covered as a matter of courtesy. I have repaired, at no cost to the home-owner, screw ups made by OTHER bad fabricators who allowed unqualified workers do stupid things, like cutting out cook-tops with a jigsaw. The manufacturer and I, collectively, sign up for a decade with the customer.

The manufacturers do not want their product name tarnished by bad performance out in the field regardless of the cause.

I call it fair to get a decent buck for a job well done. I do not want to compete with people who lack the skill and commitment to uphold the integrity of the product.

I am taking care of my customers in my neighbourhood and it is important to me that my business stays healthy and up-to-date; that costs money too.

The prices are established by using very basic formulas: cost of materials, overhead, wages and a profit. If I push the profit margins too high, people won't buy my countertops. I have to stay competitive with granite and e-Stone (Quartz)

If, for whatever reason, I can't make a profit, I bail. The manufacturers make sure that guys like me don't lose interest. This is not complicated.