messagenews: snipped-for-privacy@news2.newsguy.com...> If a DIYer can't get solid surface he's not
....Right.... After 24 years, the stuff will likely never catch on. DuPont, Samsung, Pyrotech, Wilsonart, are all clueless. They all built 20 to 50 million dollar plants because they don't think it will catch on either.
I don't think laminate flooring stands a chance.
That's your story. My story is that it's because of profits and price. If it was because of warranty issues then the manufacturers could easily sell the product without warranty.
So you say.
That's all well and good, but nobody is asking for "a job well done", they're asking for the materials to do the job themselves.
Yeah, gotta keep up with those cutting-edge developments. Right. Sure.
Well that's nice but I don't want your work, I want the material.
Only because you benefit from it to my detriment.
basically my realtor would have me believe the same things, that i don't have the knowledge, experience or common sense to sell / buy my own home. Therefore i should pay him $15K to do it for me. First house i ever purchased, i bought that line of logic. Next time i think i will try it myself. If realtors had the same lock on the market that some installers have i would be pretty torqued.
on the other hand i have no interest in trying to install a new windshield on my car, so i don't really care that i can't run down to the Glassborg and pick up a new windshield and tube of caulk. Some things are worth paying to have done right.
Seldom do I agree with J. Clark on anything but I do on this. Any material (or any product, for that matter) can be screwed up by Joe Dipshit. High pressure laminate, paint, varnish, shellac, glue, laminated flooring all come to mind. Think about it, there are many, many more.
Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who might underbid you.
"Robatoy" wrote
Rob,
I think part of the problem lies with the total self-entitlement attitude that is becoming more common. My FIL has (on occasion) issued the same lament with regard to the electric and gas utilities he uses.
In both cases, my argument is this ... "If you think the prices are too high (whether for electricity, gas, solid surface counter top material ... whatever) then feel free to make your own". In the case of electricity ... buy yourself generating equipment, build the infrastructure, and enjoy.
I suspect that no one is going to try to build an extrusion plant to make 20 feet of counter top material ... but hey, that's their option.
***What REALLY bugs me (long list to follow) is first that many people view their own labors (labours?) as priceless, yet hold in complete contempt anyone else's talents, trade, skill set, etc. People that do not even understand the basics of the material science you've spent years mastering feel confident to tell you just how wrong you are. Sigh ... you've got a thicker skin than I do ... My hat is off to you.
My second item (and I'll hold it to two today) is that this is a WOODWORKING newsgroup, and the people stirring up the noise level have been here for quite some time. Make your countertop out of wood and quit whining about the availability of raw materials. Find alternatives, get back to the shop and make something out of wood, and share the experience.
***Hang in there Rob ... and if you get down this way ... remember to bring a couple of sink cutouts with you so we can experiment with the ShopBot. The door is always open, and the beer will be cold.
Regards,
Rick
Try to follow this scenario, if you can allow yourself to see things from another perspective. If I am faced with the fact that my distributor is shipping to a new, unestablished, fabricator who is in my neck of the woods, I have to ask myself the question why. If then, the new guy starts undercutting my pricing, I have to ask myself if I can afford to cut the margins to the point where it simply isn't worth the hassle of operating a business. I am not some phylantropical institution no matter how much the likes of Mr. Clarke would like me to be. Next thing you know, I stop ordering from that distributor. Meanwhile, the new fabricator's bills are due...he's not making enough money to operate a business, so he goes under. Now nobody is selling the product. The distributor now knows he screwed up. He wants to talk to Rob again. Rob tells him to go f*ck himself. This very same scenario is an actual account of history. The distributors are smarter than that now. They know it is healthy if they allow a quality fabricator to stay in business.
My prices are 20+% lower that the solid surface countertops that Home Depot sells. 15% lower than IKEA. What that proves, is that I am neither greedy nor a price-fixer. Besides, I have shipped several slabs of solid surface material to Wreckers, so they can make routertable inserts. No charge, I paid the shipping.
To insinuate that I run a greedy, opportunistic business, proves one thing: you haven't got a clue what I am about. But if you want a piece of material to complete a project, all you have to do is ask, because even cantankerous old goats need a break once in a while.
r
The problem isn't the price, the problem is the availability. One can buy a generator if one wants to go that route, or one can buy the materials and parts to make one. But try to buy solid surface if you aren't an authorized installer.
It's not an issue of his being wrong about the "material science" (althought "material science" is a different field related to structural design), the issue is that he doesn't want anybody but him and others who are "authorized" to be able to buy solid surface even if the application is one that is outside of his line of business.
The problem is not with cost or with skills but with the attitude of the manufacturer that you must prove that you are worthy before they will deign to sell you their wonderful product.
How would you feel if the glue manufacturers got together and refused to sell glue to anybody who wasn't "authorized"? How about the nail manufacturers or the screw manufacturers or the paint manufacturers? How about if the lumber mills refused to sell wood to anyone who wasn't "authorized"? After all, not everybody knows how to design for wood movement or apply clamping pressure or cut a proper mortise and we can't have substandard work degrading the reputation of the product now can we?
See how empty those arguments are when applied to something other than solid surface?
Now, suppose you find that you can do wonderful things with solid surface and the ShopBot and then Rob kicks off and you can't get the material anymore. What is that going to do to your attitude?
What a ridiculous string! You guys should be making shavings instead of B.S. :-)
Would like to, of solid surface .
Can't even get the stuff to turn pens out of unless it's precut into small blanks.
"J. Clarke" wrote
You CAN buy the material direct from the manufacturer ... but you have to play by their rules, NOT YOURS. If you want, you too can get the factory training, buy the proper tools, and then become an authorized installer and buy the materials you need.
Of course, the cost is probably higher than you'd like ... but it IS your choice.
Materials Science is probably a better fit ... pardon the dropped "s".
Perhaps, if your need is indeed outside the normal use, you could engage the manufacturer in a discussion of what would be necessary to protect their product name while satisfying a (perhaps) new market opening up.You'd be wise to engage someone else to perform the negotiations, however, based on your actions to date in this forum. Not a slam by any means, just an observation.
You have the SAME attitude the solid-surface manufacturers have ... just at the polar ends of the scale. They don't want their product's (or their) reputation diminished by those who don't follow their instructions regarding installation. You don't want to play their game by their rules. Fair enough ... you don't get to play (it IS their ball, after all).
You assume collusion between the different solid surface manufacturers, you allude to price-fixing, but you don't provide any supporting proof. If you feel that the manufacturers are price-fixing, feel free to contact the FTC and file a complaint. As to your comments about screw, nail, glue or paint manufacturers refusing to sell their products to untrained individuals ... it already happens. Lumber yard just up the street refuses to sell to anyone without an established business relationship with them. Why? In the former case, proper training in the handling, storing and use of the materials is required by the technology involved. In the latter case, they just don't want to bother with DIY types, because it's such a pain to deal in small quantities, put up with the problems brought about by the lack of understanding of the materials involved, and because they don't want to work weekends.
Now, I'm pretty sure that the lumber yard you buy your wood from doesn't care what you do with the wood ... being a generic agricultural product easily obtainable by anyone with a piece of steel. The solid surface manufacturers are dealing with their propriatary compound and manufacturing process, coupled with a long-term warranty with their end-customers. If you buy countertop material, install it in a house you are flipping, and in one or two years this countertop has a problem ... well, you're long gone and the manufacturer is listening to the homeowner (or more likely, the homeowner's lawyer) about damages. The manufacturer's only fault was selling you the material, yet they end up footing the bill for your misdeed.
My point? They DON'T have to do business with you, and in many cases they WON'T.
If Rob kicked off as you so poorly put it, I'd miss his wit, his reasonable ability to articulate even difficult subjects to most of the readers here, and his sense of humor (humour) but I won't change my attitude about Rob or about solid surface material. You see, to me, this is what I do to relax and have fun while being creative. I don't get all wrapped up because someone won't give me what I want, I move on to something else.
I really must have slept through Social Studies in school, because I really fail to see where ANYONE is entitled to get what they want just by plunking down money and insisting. Not saying that you do that ... that is the perception I get from the tone of your writing. I don't mean to be dismissive (though it often comes across that way) ... you are either going to have to play by the existing rules, or gently establish new ones agreeable to both you AND the solid surface manufacturers, else they are going to ignore you.
With regard to the ShopBot and solid surface materials, I already know the ShopBot can do wonderful things unimaginable to most ... the key to that particular paragraph was to entice Rob to "come on down" and get some run-time on a very nice piece of equipment so that he'll head over to Durham and buy one to take home with him. I like sharing my enthusiasm about woodworking, technology, etc. with others, and try to be encouraging. There is always room for more positive, encouraging words ... both here on the w(rec)k, and in the "real" world.
Regards,
Rick
We simply do not want anybody to expose the product in an inferior way. It is not good for the product's image. (This is aside from the fact that the polyisocyanide and other nasty stuff in the adhesives/hardener is very nasty stuff prior to reaction.)
That is simply not true. Any countertop shop can buy the strips to edge their counters or for back splashes. Most will sell the material wide enough to make window sills.
Now THAT is a crock. The manufacturers do not approach this from an elitist standpoint. Read my lips: The product must be fabricated and installed by somebody skilled and trained enough in order for the manufacturer to underwrite the warranty. It is risk management as well as a way to assure that the application of the product is within the guidelines of the product's technical specification. Its structural strength limits the application as well. The fire rating comes into play. If Mr. Clarke wants to build a fireplace mantle out of it, and it collapses into the fire, the liability will not be assumed by the manufacturer. You, sir, are simply not qualified to make judgements as to when and when not to use that product in any specific application.
You forgot one. Prove to me you know how to handle toilet paper and I'll sell you a porkchop. Maybe somebody else wants to chase your red herrings and salute your straw men. I will not. .
Someone as rational as Rick? I'd sign his tests in a heartbeat. Then I'd take a truck to Rick's and put on three shifts of CNC operators and make certain products of my design out of solid surface material which would yield a substantial amount of eBay sales within a year. (I'd set it all up myself, but there's only one of me.)
*which reminds me, I need somebody to turn me 2 pieces 18" diameter x 6" thick out of maple.* I pay well.For further info:
What a ridiculous string! You guys should be making shavings instead of B.S.
Hey, you're reading it.
I made no mention of price fixing or of price at all.
But since it's clear that you're addressing what you want to believe I said rather than what I said, there is obviously no purpose in attempting to continue discussion with either you or "robatoy".
You keep claiming this. Maybe if you claim it long enough somebody will believe you. What you do not want is for someone to undercut your price.
Care to provide a link to an MSDS for a solid surface adhesive/hardener thata contains "polyisocyanide"?
And how about large pieces for use in something other than countertops?
Sez you.
In other words somebody who paid the manufacturer for the privilege. And once again what is the objection to selling it to someone who does not want or need a warranty?
Uh huh. If concrete manufacturers had had that attitude Fallingwater would never have been built.
The same is true for pine. I guess that we should restrict distribution of that to "authorized installers" as well.
And you claim that you are not "elitist". So where did you get your engineering degree smart boy?
And are you now asserting that your wonderful solid surface is such a fire hazard that it can't be used in an application in which a piece of pine will serve adequately?
Can you say non-sequitur? Now address the issue smart boy.
In other words you don't have a clue how to counter the argument.
Yeah, but you see, since you kicked it in this scenario you're not around to "sign his tests". You do comprehend "kicked it" do you not? In this scenario you've passed on, you've ceased to be, you've expired and gone to meet your maker, you are a late solid surface fabricator, you're a stiff, bereft of life, you rest in peace, if you hadn't spilled the polyisocyanide and glued yourself to a countertop you'd be pushing up daisies, you've rung down the curtain and joined the Choir Invisible, you are an ex-solid surface fabricator.
But I find it interesting that you'd "sign his tests in a heartbeat" without first requiring that he actually undergo them. Looks to me like you're admitting that it's a buddy network and not something based on objective criteria.
But you see, you kicked it, so you don't get to do any of that, and furthermore, note what you just said, you'd do it to put a buck in your own pocket. Have you ever done _anything_ in your life for any reason other than to make a buck?
Mr Clarke:
It is now obvious that your sole goal is to perpetuate an argument based on what you think is right in that limited mind of yours.
For a while you had me tricked into thinking that you were open to reason. It seems that I have wasted my time and I will no longer indulge you.
Have a nice day.
rPS Yes, I do have a degree in engineering. You?
So you're saying that it is better for you and the manufacturer to keep the tight little "club" going to ensure high prices and lack of competition.
Right and wrong don't enter into it. This is not about morality, it is about manufacturers of one product treating that product very differently in the market from every other kind of product in that market.
I am, do you have any to present that isn't equal justification for restricting the sale of _any_ construction material?
Issuing empty arguments in defense of your own financial interests is always a waste of time. Next time you're tempted to try it remember this.
If you are actually done with your long-winded apologetics for the solid-surface industry then I'm having a very nice day.
Georgia Tech '79. Now what's a smart boy like you doing installing counters for a living?
messagenews: snipped-for-privacy@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
you're saying that it is better for you and the manufacturer to keep the
Now, let's quote the entire statement, shall we?
Try to follow this scenario, if you can allow yourself to see things from another perspective. If I am faced with the fact that my distributor is shipping to a new, unestablished, fabricator who is in my neck of the woods, I have to ask
myself the question why. If then, the new guy starts undercutting my pricing, I have to ask myself if I can afford to cut the margins to the
point where it simply isn't worth the hassle of operating a business. I
am not some phylantropical institution no matter how much the likes of Mr. Clarke would like me to be. Next thing you know, I stop ordering from that distributor. Meanwhile, the new fabricator's bills are due...he's not making enough money to operate a business, so he goes under..
Then you, CW wrote this:
So where am I saying that? Nowhere did I mention that we ensure high prices and lack of competition. In fact, the opposite is true. because I get to operate by myself, I can cut my prices because I know I will have enough business to maintain my business model. There simply isn't any room for me to cut my prices further. Which is why I know that if anybody tried to sell for less than I do, they wouldn't be able to stay in business, because they would be operating at a loss.
And
You, sir, are barking up the wrong tree.
It is a combination of my low prices and quality craftsmanship that keeps my shop going, fuelled by the best advertizing ever: word of mouth.
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