Shop Wall and Electric

Oh, well, as long as you're redoing most of the drywall anyway...

Wusses.

If you have to cut into a wall that you know, or suspect, has live wires inside it, use a utility knife. Not a saw. A utility knife won't extend through the drywall far enough to hit a wire, and even if it does the wire will simply move out of the way.

wanted to buy a gun.

That's up to you. Certainly it's safer to kill the power to the panel first, but if you're careful about where you put your fingers it's only slightly safer.

At SWMBO's insistence, I never work in live panels alone. And at *my* insistence, SWMBO never works in live panels at all. She knows what she's doing (degreed engineer). The issue is that she knows CPR, and I don't.

Another rule of thumb is to keep one hand in your pocket or behind your back. If you're wearing rubber-soled shoes, it's nearly (but not completely) impossible to get a fatal shock if you have only one hand in the panel. The greatest danger in AC comes when the current passes across the heart: from hand to hand, or from hand to opposite foot. I've been stung a couple of times; that encourages a healthy respect for 120VAC, but it also helps to dispel exaggerated fears of it too. The last time, about five years ago, the back of my hand was against the panel chassis and I inadvertently brushed the tip of my index finger against a live busbar, so the grounding path was just the length of my finger plus half of my hand. I felt it up the the shoulder; half an hour later, I could still feel it in my elbow. It *hurts*. Make no mistake about that. But I'm still alive.

You're quite welcome, Bill. Keep asking questions -- it's the best way to learn.

Reply to
Doug Miller
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Actually, most of the electrical advice given here *is* sound, and there are enough people here who understand it well that unsound advice meets with rapid and accurate refutation.

If you're concerned about any advice you get here, try asking the same questions over at alt.home.repair -- several professional electricians used to post there regularly, but the only one I remember seeing there recently is "RBM".

Reply to
Doug Miller

Yes. That's required by Code now. It didn't use to be.

Reply to
Doug Miller

I'm not aware of any such requirement. Ask whoever told you that to show you where the Code says that.

Reply to
Doug Miller

"Bill" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news1.newsguy.com:

Luigi seems to be the keeper of the Anti-FAQ. Read it when you've got time, it's well worth it. (Be sure to clear the space between your tongue and cheek--you'll need it.)

Btw, at the bottom of the Anti-FAQ there's a copyright note: Real copyright: Copyright (c)1998-2005 by Luigi Zanasi all rights reserved. You can't copy this thing for any reason. It's now mine, mine, mine, mine, mine. I stole it fair & square. Neener neener!

Puckdropper

Reply to
Puckdropper

Get a qualified electrician to do it. This guy is going to get you killed.

Oh, well, as long as you're redoing most of the drywall anyway...

Wusses.

If you have to cut into a wall that you know, or suspect, has live wires inside it, use a utility knife. Not a saw. A utility knife won't extend through the drywall far enough to hit a wire, and even if it does the wire will simply move out of the way.

That's up to you. Certainly it's safer to kill the power to the panel first, but if you're careful about where you put your fingers it's only slightly safer.

At SWMBO's insistence, I never work in live panels alone. And at *my* insistence, SWMBO never works in live panels at all. She knows what she's doing (degreed engineer). The issue is that she knows CPR, and I don't.

Another rule of thumb is to keep one hand in your pocket or behind your back. If you're wearing rubber-soled shoes, it's nearly (but not completely) impossible to get a fatal shock if you have only one hand in the panel. The greatest danger in AC comes when the current passes across the heart: from hand to hand, or from hand to opposite foot. I've been stung a couple of times; that encourages a healthy respect for 120VAC, but it also helps to dispel exaggerated fears of it too. The last time, about five years ago, the back of my hand was against the panel chassis and I inadvertently brushed the tip of my index finger against a live busbar, so the grounding path was just the length of my finger plus half of my hand. I felt it up the the shoulder; half an hour later, I could still feel it in my elbow. It *hurts*. Make no mistake about that. But I'm still alive.

You're quite welcome, Bill. Keep asking questions -- it's the best way to learn.

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Reply to
Josepi

Luigi is giving you good advice, here.

If you are not familiar with electrical work or the electrical code get a qualified electrician that can wire these things properly for you. You have received some advice that can be very dangerous, here.

If an Electrical Inpsector finds some of it you may be taking your wiring out and redoing some. That can get frustrating and costly.

Your concerns are well-taken. But I do not require a lot of consistent responses. I think if 3 different contractors showed up at my door, they would not be consistent. I do not even think they would try to understand my needs as well as the folks here do. I have earned a PhD in mathematics so I can field at least some of your math questions with some authority, just as some of the folks here have been able to field my questions about electricity with the same sort of authority. I think you are under-estimating the amount of intellect which is here. Why you choose to take this point of view I am uncertain. I think it is not so difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. It is more difficult to navigate my attic--but I am working on that! : ) I wonder how many people learned something useful about GFCI today? I know I did--or at least, I think I did!

Best, Bill

Just ask away on the group and you can be sure of getting a whole lot of accurate and consistent responses, just like when you ask any math question of all the rocket scientists on the wreck.

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Reply to
Josepi

This is one place a Roto-Zip works wonders. I had a similar situation with plumbing known to be behind the wall (the builder stuck the mounting hardware through the main drain line from the upstairs bathroom). Set the Roto-Zip depth to 1/2" and have at it. Finish with knife.

Roto-Zips make a mess, but the cuttings are larger than a lot of saws so it's easier to clean up.

Reply to
keithw86

LMAO. You're completely clueless.

Still think you can see a framing nail at 500 meters?

Reply to
Doug Miller

Time to put up or shut up, Josepi. Specifically what "very dangerous" advice has he received, and why is it dangerous?

Reply to
Doug Miller

re: "Is the workbench powered using a male-male extension cord to the wall?"

I was hoping nobody would ask that question!

The workbench is a rather old structure (1950's?) that came with the house. It is basically framed with full-sized 2 x 4's (doubled up for the legs) and topped with 2 x 8's, upon which I added 1/4" hardboard to get a smooth yet replaceable work surface. The unit is just over 8' long and about 3' deep. It's a rather hefty unit.

It is more or less "permanently" wired into the shop. There is a junction box attached to a back leg of the workbench with a run of

12/2 NM from a junction box in the ceiling. From the workbench junction box I ran more 12/2 along the frame and attached the outlets in surface mount boxes.

I assume the junction box attached to the workbench is probably not code, but based on the weight of the workbench and it's location, it's not something that ever gets moved. If it needed to be moved, I would disconnect the wires in the ceiling box so no live wires would be exposed.

What would be required to bring this up to code? Would a male-male be required? Would just a male pig-tail from the junction box to a receptacle be better? Or is it OK as is?

Reply to
DerbyDad03

That reminds me, got to get the refund on my home wiring book ...

Reply to
Lobby Dosser

That's correct. Neither is the NM cable going to it.

That's mostly safe. But it's still not Code-compliant.

There are at least two ways to bring it up to code.

Method 1: a) Bolt the workbench to the floor so it becomes "permanently installed". b) Keep the workbench junction box where it is, and run individual conductors or NM cable inside some type of rigid conduit[*]. AFAIK, all flexible conduit is prohibited by Code from being used "where subject to physical damage"; so is type MC (metal clad) cable. I think this use probably qualifies as "subject to physical damage". Armored cable isn't approved here either, because Code requires that it "closely follow" the building surface (IOW, you're not permitted to install armored cable loose in the air).

Method 2: a) Install a receptable in the ceiling junction box. b) Replace the NM cable with Type SJ (or similar) cable -- this is the stuff that's used for equipment power cords -- and put a grounded plug on the end of it. Make sure to get 12ga cable with three conductors (black, white, and green).

[*] It is a common misconception that the Code prohibits use of NM inside conduit. This is not true; in fact, the Code explicitly _requires_ the use of conduit to protect NM from physical damage where necessary [2008 NEC, Article 334.15(B)]. What's not allowed is to run NM in *flexible* conduit.

Male-to-male extension cords are highly unsafe, and *never* compliant with any codes.

Yes. See Method 2 above.

No, it's not. It's mostly safe. But it definitely does not comply with Code.

Reply to
Doug Miller

You would think more inspectors would be aware of this, but I've found it necessary to point out this very issue on a couple of occasions to our newer local inspectors ... where the old timers will get you is that you do have to de-rate the ampacity of the circuit in your calculations due to heat buildup when doing so.

Reply to
Swingman

That's what I was going to say. :-)

Reply to
-MIKE-

de.- Hide quoted text -

Thanks Doug.

One minor point (question?)

You said "IOW, you're not permitted to install armored cable loose in the air. "

No where is there any cable "loose in the air". The cable from the ceiling box is stapled to boards that is TapCon-ed to the block wall in the corner of the shop and behind a cabinet. The NM cable is secured within inches of both junction boxes, as well as along it's run along the boards.

Things would have to go horribly wrong in the shop for the run from the ceiling junction box to the workbench junction box to be damaged. And I mean just about total devastation.

All in all, I've always felt the installation was as you noted: "It's mostly safe. But it definitely does not comply with Code".

The use of Type SJ (or similar) cable to a receptacle would be a simple fix - other than the fact that I need to empty and move the cabinet to gain access to the area. There's no telling what's lurking in the bowels of that cabinet. ;-)

Reply to
DerbyDad03

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for the latest version.

I gave up on it when Leon posted the all new 21st century questions in this post:

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Reply to
Luigi Zanasi

This is often used when placing outlets on concrete/cinderblock walls; the NM runs along the joist, and enters conduit at the sill plate and the conduit runs vertically down the wall. A plastic bushing should be used where the NM enters the conduit to prevent abrasion, even better would be a handy box with appropriate fittings (setscrew or compression connector for the conduit, and NM clamp for the NM), although with the handy box in place, I'd just run THHN to from the handy box to the outlet.

The caveat here is to ensure that the fill ratio isn't exceeded.

One 12-2/wg NM in 1/2 emt is ok. two, probably not.

scott

Reply to
Scott Lurndal

In article , DerbyDad03 wrote: [...]

Okay, that changes things a bit. I had pictured a free-standing bench. Not so? Your bench is right up against a wall?

If that's the case, then armored cable is definitely OK, and if you can persuade your local inspector that the location is not "subject to physical damage" then exposed NM, MC, or individual conductors in any type of flexible conduit will be too.

*That* may be a Code violation (junction boxes are required to be accessible).
Reply to
Doug Miller

Yes. Small shop, workbench is in a corner, therefore against *two* walls. The "open end" has the junction box attached to the upper portion of the back leg. The space between the workbench and the other side wall is filled with a free standing metal cabinet.

What the code definition of "accessible"? Can it be behind a free standing cabinet? Or a dryer? Or a couch?

Does it have to be in plain sight so you can walk right up and touch it?

Reply to
DerbyDad03

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