Shop Wall and Electric

[-MIKE-]

I'm fascinated by the history of all things construction, architectural, engineering, et al.

It's very interesting to hear these things.

[Larry Jaques]

On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 15:33:59 -0400, FrozenNorth wrote the following:

Nothing but possible air circulation to the panel for cooling.

Real handymen don't pull that kind of stunt. It's the homeowners who think they're handy who do, and they give us a bad name.

That's right. I hang a rake handle over my breaker box. ;)

-- It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. -- Charles Darwin

[Larry Jaques]

On Thu, 03 Jun 2010 14:08:56 -0500, Swingman wrote the following:

Z&P? Izzat the "Zoological and Proctological" sector of the Building Code Division? They bring out the animal in you and give you shit.

I just changed a filter for a lady. It was in the wall at the top of her 12' ceiling, a pretty fun ride from an 8' ladder.

Today I dug out some black bamboo for her (and brought home some rhizomes.) I have some muck buckets to plant them in to keep them from doing to me what the little leptomorphs did to her: running all over the place.

-- It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change. -- Charles Darwin

[Bill]

re: "use quad outlet boxes at 120 locations"

480 outlets? Yeah, that oughta be enough for most shops. ;-)

Thank you Pat Barber who first mentioned this in this thread and DerbyDad03 who brought it up again. For some reason the idea of having pairs of duplex outlets didn't take until I considered it while standing in the shop area. It sounds like a good idea! You never know where things will end up, battery rechargers and such. I even ended up with a small "shop refrigerator" already (and I never was serious about having one..).

A little more action on the project: today I took down and demolished about

6 1970's vintage kitchen cabinets which are in the way. I referred to them earlier as "hideous" and I won't be missing them. I confess that the act of smashing them up with a big crowbar was almost more fun than it should have been. : )

Bill

[Hoosierpopi]

ient power" here are a few salient comments borne of the school of hard kno= cks Magna Cum Shudda Woddah couldha

1. Ceiling duplex outlets for every light fixture but two circuits splitting duplex outlets into Switched (plug in your light) and steady/ always on and one breaker for each "side"
2. Locate wall outlets at convenient height(s) so as not to fall behind benches, tool chests etc. and consider two duplex outlets at each location with the upper left outlet SWITCHED and on its own circuit. (These outlets are dedicated to plugging in those little wall modules that you should unplug when leaving the shop as they eat power

24/7 and get hot and can burn/start fires).

1. Switches for lighting and ceiling and upper left at each ingress/ egress point (one, two, three or four-way switches as appropriate.
2. Remotely-switched circuit for air compressor (ao you need not be wakened at 3AM by wife complaining of the noise "it's waking our neighbors").
3. Extend outlets to front edge of fixed work bench(es).
4. Consider COAX, POTS, and CAT5 cables brought in from main house in case TV, phone or Computer Network application later become more important than they, now, may seem.

[Robert Bonomi]

+I+ would run _10_ ga. (minimum) to the 240 outlets. It's only trivially more cost initially, and 'in the future' it makes it much easier to support something that needs more power (just change the breaker and the plug).

One can never have enough 120v outlets. I'd put a quad box at each of the three locations, with two circuits (one for each duplex outlet pair).

If it is a strictly ONE MAN shop, two circuits for all the 120V is likely enough -- the 'one man' feature will limit how much gear is running at any given moment.

IF NOT, I'd want a minimum of 3 circuits for the 120v, with 'staggered' availability. i.e. circuit1/2 at the first box, circuit2/3 at the second box, and circuit 3/1 at the third box..

Also, you'll find out _real_quick_ that you need more outlets by the work- bench. recommend 3 quad boxes along -that- wall as well.

Lastly, I'd put in GFI _outlets_, and use regular breakers, where I could. _IF_ something trips, it will kill that outlet only, and -not- take out 'something else' that might be running on the same circuit. More of a consideration in a 'more than one person' shop, but it's along the same lines as why you don't put _anything_ else on the 'lighting' circuit -- localize the 'surprise factor' as much as possible.

Note: if you look for 'em, you can find _20_ Amp rated 120v GFI duplex outlets. They're practically the same cost as the stock 15A ones, but the attachment points are sized for the bigger wire gauge, and give the potential for _safely_ supporting a higher-draw 120v device.

[Robert Bonomi]

male-male is *illegal* in a lot of jurisdictions. Serious risk if the upstream (i.e. the wall outlet fed from utility power) end is plugged in and the other end is -not-.

In most jurisdictions the outlets on the bench is perfectly legal (no different than a convenience outlet on a stove, say), with a simple drop cord to plug it into a wall outlet. I would probably consider using greenlee armored cable and a twist-lok connector.

I'd use greenlee, or actual EMT conduit, for all the 'on bench' inter- connections. something -could- fly around and hit bare wiring (even NM) I don't believe in giving MURPHY a -chance- to muck with things. :)

[Puckdropper]

[e-mail] (Robert Bonomi) wrote in news:HYOdndF1SfwA-ZTRnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

*snip*

*snip*

Many of the GFCI outlets I've seen have a little indicator light that turns on when tripped. Simplifes the whole "did my lamp burn out or is the outlet dead?" question. Just another small reason to use GFCI outlets.

Puckdropper

[Bill]

That sounds (to me) inconsistent with the "you one need one GFI outlet at the beginning of a (circuit) run for each hot" advise that I've heard. What am I missing?

Bill

[Jack Stein]

Wot?

I could have all my tools on the same circuit EXCEPT the dust collector and air compressor, since they are the only ones that run at the same time as my other tools.

[Swingman]

Nothing ... you should not have more than one GFCI protection device on a branch circuit; either a GFCI c'bkr protecting the circuit at the panel, or a "GFCI receptacle" as the first receptacle in the branch circuit that protects the rest of the run.

He was merely saying that, in some instances, that first GFCI receptacle is in the same room making it easy to see if it has tripped.

That is not always the case in a residence, however, where the GFCI receptacle for the branch circuit may be in a different room, in a closet, on the wall under a cabinet, on in some instances, outside ... it's why I carry a GFCI circuit tester in my pocket, particularly when accompanying an inspector on an electrical inspection of one of my houses under construction, something which I _always_ do.

[Doug Miller]

You use pneumatic tools and the table saw at the same time?

Yes, I understand the compressor could kick on even when it's not in use, but remember that "best practice" is to shut the compressor down and drain the water at the end of the day. If it cycles on, when not in use, once a day, then you have a pretty considerable air leak somewhere.

[whit3rd]

Or, you can dust the saw off with the airgun between cuts... or even, for heavy use, maybe direct a bolt-in air nozzle at the saw's teeth inside the table saw housing. A drill, saw, or router can benefit from airblast chip removal as well as from dust collection. If you want to be creative, consider air-powered clamps and vises, too.

[krw]

A compressor can come on at any time.

Are you saying that you never use your compressor in the same day as your saw?

[Robert Bonomi]

Don't work with A/C ower then. it's *RE*VOLTING*.

[Robert Bonomi]

As of 4 years ago, I can say "authoritatively not". Can't imagine that they stuck something that silly in a new version, but i have been wrong before. Twice, I think.

[Robert Bonomi]

That's for _access_ to the panel. Does -not- mean that 'nothing' can be there.

"premesis" panel in the kitchen of a condo. 'drop leaf' counter mounted on the wall under it. outlets on wall a line about halfway between counter line and bottom of box. one 3" to the right of the right edge of the panel, another about 10 " to the left of the panel. City inspector had -no- problems with it. (locale: a Chicago suburb, inspectors knowledgable and strict. Had some minor quibbles over a few nuances of interpretation, but when they explained, I had to agree their logic made sense. And I then did things their way. (helped a lot that I double-checked _before_ doing, when of in 'nooks and crannies' of the code. )

Minimum distance is about two box fittings.

[Robert Bonomi]

This requirement _has_ changed over time. when was your service installed?

[Robert Bonomi]

Nothing. that's _all_ you *NEED*. *IF* you series-wired the downstream outlets.

I parallel-wire, and use a GFI each place.

[krw]

Late 2007, early 2008. The previous house (main panel in front porch closet on opposite side of garage as the service entrance) was built in '86.

I think someone else had the answer in another threadlet, however. There is a disconnect at the entrance.