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When I was young it was frequent. Now, you have a point. I can still cut a board just as fast as then, but now, by the time I decide what I want to do, find the board to cut, find a square, find the miter gage, find my tape (in my pocket) find a pencil (in my pocket) find safety glasses (on my face) and do all this w/o losing focus and start off on some other task, the compressor has filled, and in danger of starting all over again (leaks)

Code? Whats a code?

Reply to
Jack Stein
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I couldn't verify if this message made it to the group, so I am reposting. Still curious about the question at the top if anyone would care to comment. Thanks! Bill

Reply to
Bill

Top of what?

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Reply to
Josepi

I apologize for not wording my question more effectively. Here's another try:

A few months ago, the idea of a "quad in a box" as a go-anywhere power source was brought up.

Can one power this configuration by plugging it into a wall outlet without violating the NEC?

Bill

Reply to
Bill

Maybe nobody knows what a "quad-in-a-box" is? I don't. Perhaps dual duplex recepticals?

Usually electrical safety codes do not apply very tightly to plug-in devices. These devices would be controlled by consumer safety agencies like UL & CSA. Everytime the ELec. Code Inspector comes you would just unplug it, anyway!...LOL

Is this any help?

A few months ago, the idea of a "quad in a box" as a go-anywhere power source was brought up.

Can one power this configuration by plugging it into a wall outlet without violating the NEC?

Bill

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Reply to
Josepi

Yes, of course. The NEC is concerned with services, feeders, and branch circuits -- basically, everything between the service drop and the outlet. What's on *your* side of the outlet is of no concern to the NEC.

Reply to
Doug Miller

Josephi - You read my mind. A pair of duplex outlets was what I had in mind by "quad in a box". I honestly did not intend to be vague.

Doug -- Wouldn't this be considered an extension of the branch circuit/outlet since it is an outlet itself? Maybe it's gets omitted for being temporary. This same mechanism seems like the best way to add outlets underneath the table of a workbench. Do you think that this is this just as permissable?

I had a question concerning the ground wires in wiring a quad box in a branch circuit (both outlets to be run in series from the same hot). Resources I have found have been vague. My understanding includes that a wire attached to the ground terminal of the first duplex outlet would be pigtailed with the upstream ground wire and a wire which is screwed to the box, and that the wire attached to the ground terminal of the second duplex outlet would be pigtailed with the downstream ground wire and a wire which is screwed to the (metal) box. So the box would contain exactly 2 connectors and two wires would be screwed to the box, possibly at the same place. Does this seem like the best way to you? I can think of equivalent configurations, but this one seems good. Another possibility seems to be to use a 3rd pigtail connecting the first two pigtail connections and connect them to the box that way instead. Which way seems preferable to you?

BTW, using 12-3 cable for my run, every wire I mentioned connecting in the paragraph above would be bare (right?).

Thank you! Bill

Reply to
Bill

---------------------------------- Cut to the chase.

Go back and reread and understand my post a long time ago on this subject.

Buy a 12-3 (black, white, green), 25 ft molded cord set, chop off receptacle, wire in a 2-gang, extra deep box with a double duplex cover plate and a couple of receptacles.

Time for a beer.

It's only a silly extension cord.

Lew

Reply to
Lew Hodgett

Perhaps so, but surely it's an extension cord that merits much more care. Thank you for your patience.

Bill

Reply to
Bill

No -- because it's *not* an outlet. It's an extension cord.

It's not covered by the Code because it's not part of the premises wiring system.

Certainly. As I said before, it's just an extension cord.

Parallel, actually, not series.

That's one way to do it, but certainly not the only way. The Code requires that both grounding wires, and the grounding terminals of each outlet, and the metal box, are all electrically connected. How you achieve that is up to you. A more common installation would be to wire-nut together pigtails from each outlet, both grounding conductors, and a pigtail fastened to the box.

Yes

NO. At different places. One wire per screw terminal.

Not the second one you mention here. Why use an extra pigtail if you don't need to?

Every wire you mentioned *must* be bare, regardless of what type of cable you're using -- but why are you using 12-3 cable? (12-3 has *four* conductors: black, red, white, and bare.)

The NEC mandates that the grounding conductor be either: a) uninsulated, or b) covered with insulation which is green, or green with a yellow stripe. NM cable is manufactured *only* with bare grounding conductors.

Reply to
Doug Miller

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 01:46:21 -0400, "Bill" wrote the following:

Um, why would one extension cord require/merit more care than another extension cord, Bill? Am I missing something from the original thread?

-- Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity. -- George S. Patton

Reply to
Larry Jaques

Or easier yet, buy something like this:

Google "multi outlet adapter"

Reply to
Doug Winterburn

I see these all the time and have built many. I also hear that phrase all the time... it may be a regional thing.

All you're talking about is a homemade extension cord with 4 outlets. Couldn't you just buy a power strip with a long cord? Those thing are already UL listed and many of them have a built-in GFCI on the plug.

Reply to
-MIKE-

Beat me to it. :-)

Reply to
-MIKE-

It's no different than any extension cord. Use type SJ 12-3 with ground and a 4" deep box; make sure you use the appropriate fitting to hold the SJ to the box. If you use a metal box, make sure you ground the box.

scott

Reply to
Scott Lurndal

Only requirement for the use of it as Doug describes is that everything be UL(or equal) listed. Even when we've hard wired them into ceiling boxes in commercial installations the only requirement was the use of heavy duty cord and strain relief connectors at both ends.

Mike M

Reply to
Mike M

-- but why are you using 12-3 cable? (12-3 has *four* conductors:

For this particular wire run, I'm going to power 8 duplex outlets with one hot and 4 more with the other hot. I'm also going to run wire to dedicated 240v outlets. I'm also going to use it for my lighting (different circuits of course).

I have already used SU to estimate my wire requirements, and one 250' roll of 12-3 will meet adequately meet ALL of my current (cough, cough) wiring needs. Wiring to my outlets will range from 23'-44' and I think this decision will make managing my wire inventory very simple, now and with whatever is leftover. I'm always willing to be corrected, but I thought this was a good decision on my part.

I was tempted to go with pigtailing 5 wires to connect to ground, but that seems to slightly complicate the future replacement of a duplex outlet (since to my understanding, properly done, the end of the wires should be recut). I think I'm on safer ground (cough), or at least more confident, twisting/connecting 3 wires rather than 5. I surely don't want one coming loose.

Thank you very much for your valuable assistance! And also to other folks who have helped me along my road to self-actualization.

My next step is to remove all of the wallboard on two walls. Then I can better-understand and remove/modify the existing wiring before I put up the new. I have to admit that I overlooked the removal/modification step in my planning! And this does not include the

30Amp RV-outlet on the outside of my shop that I am not using. I think I will dismantle it at the panel for now. The NEC doesn't preclude leaving it in this state/condition, does it?

Bill

Reply to
Bill

Why not 6 and 6?

There's no need to run 12-3 or 10-3 for pure 240V outlets. A 240V circuit does not use, and hence does not need, a neutral conductor, so 12-2 or 10-2 will work just fine.

It makes more sense to use 14-2 for your lighting circuits. Why 12-3?

I don't agree. I think it's a poor decision. Based on the plans you posted a week or so back, you don't need 12-3 for *anything*. All of your 120V outlets can be wired with 12-2, and the lighting with 14-2.

And you should be using 10-2, not 12-3, for the 240V circuits. The dust collector can manage on 12-2, I'd imagine.

[...]

It didn't used to, but the Code does now require that abandoned wire be removed as much as practical. There was a discussion of that over at alt.home.repair about 5-6 months ago, I think -- I'm pretty sure somebody posted the exact requirements, and you should be able to find the thread with a Google Groups search.

Reply to
Doug Miller

Typically in residential wiring cables the ground wire is not included in the conductor count. If you bought other type cable, for almost any other application, the total number of conductors would be included in the count. So yes, 12/3 NMD, NMW, would include a black, red, white plus a bare conductor. If you bought a 12/3 cable in cab tire (the black rubber type flexible stuff) it would include a black, white and green, or three other colours depending on the application it was desigend for and the company making it.

For ground wiring, I like to keep them as continuous as possible. I would probably bring my incoming ground wire, very long from the cable, wrap it around the box screw and then to each receptical in turn with one long, uncut run, all from the cable. In lieu of that, to the box screw, then to a wire nut (connector / Marrette) with two pigtails... one to each receptical ground. If the wire is stranded you may want to crimp a lug on the end, depending on how well the connector is made for that style of conductor.

I am not sure what the point of the four banger receptical would be. I have installed this config in walls a few times and it is a mistake for most applications. Most wall wart AC adapters cover too many recepticals, the six banger receptical splitters cover the other two recepticals and you only get use of two of the wired in ones, the current capacity is still only 15 amps between the four and that limits what you can accidentally use at one time and a few other reasons I can't think of right now. They do work well for light draw test equipment (say electronics).

The number 12 wire may be a good idea if the extension cord has some length to elimate voltage drop and be easier on higher powered equipment (saws, routers etc..) but then you probably wouldn't want to share a bunch of equipment like that on that quad box. Individual circuits are still the best bet for when your grandson comes in and cuts that piece of wood or blows off his dirty pants while you are jointing that piece of briar you just bought.

If you O/C protect the 12/3 cable with a 20 amp circuit then you need 20 amp recepticals (have a T slot in the neutral side) and you are over fusing any portable power tools you use. You may lose some of the human protection afforded by the recommended max circuit capacity for the equipment.

In short, if you are going to open up your walls, spend the time and money to put a few outlets around the room on individual circuits. Possibly one on the ceiling for who-knows-what later. You don't have to use them. I wired mine with one receptical per breaker..kept them high for over workbenches. Any 240v circuits will have to be crawling through the attic or kept close to the breaker panel or piped across the ceiling after.

BTW: There are defined standards for every current and voltage rating of receptical so they can't be used in the wrong application. It is a good idea to stick to these standards. I believe I have found charts on GE or Hubbel websites with pics to identify each type.

Personally, If I were you, I would pay for a wiring inspection. You run all your cables to the boxes and call them to come and then again after the recepticals are installed and closed up. I would run the wire, install the boxes and wire the recepticals and leave hanging for the rough in inspection. (the wall finisher will not like the receptical wired in bu they can be turned sideways and pushed through the holes before mounting the drywall etc... Inform the inspector you are not too sure and have a close look, He will advise some requirements, some tips, and some hints of how to make it right or better, usually. After the first wave of inspection, hook up your breakers in the panel. If nervous about that get some help, friend, passing electrician etc... With inspection, you'll feel better, your home insurance will feel better after a fire, and you just bought yourself some protection against insurance, weasel out.

Josephi - You read my mind. A pair of duplex outlets was what I had in mind by "quad in a box". I honestly did not intend to be vague.

I had a question concerning the ground wires in wiring a quad box in a branch circuit (both outlets to be run in series from the same hot). Resources I have found have been vague. My understanding includes that a wire attached to the ground terminal of the first duplex outlet would be pigtailed with the upstream ground wire and a wire which is screwed to the box, and that the wire attached to the ground terminal of the second duplex outlet would be pigtailed with the downstream ground wire and a wire which is screwed to the (metal) box. So the box would contain exactly 2 connectors and two wires would be screwed to the box, possibly at the same place. Does this seem like the best way to you? I can think of equivalent configurations, but this one seems good. Another possibility seems to be to use a 3rd pigtail connecting the first two pigtail connections and connect them to the box that way instead. Which way seems preferable to you?

BTW, using 12-3 cable for my run, every wire I mentioned connecting in the paragraph above would be bare (right?).

Thank you! Bill

Reply to
Josepi

I recently read somewhere, perhaps in the NEC, about a requirement of submission of desogn drawings (prepared by somoneone who knows how to) that are not less than 30" etc. Is this part of the wiring inspection process? You are talking about working through the city/municipality right? The insurance issue is one I have been concerned about. I am a little afraid to let an inspector see what I "inherited" when I bought my house (although the house inspector didn't note any problems in this area). Someone with a trained eye wouldn't have trouble finding existing things to object to... BTW, my project includes the installation of a subpanel adjacent to the main panel.

Bill

Reply to
Bill

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