The top of my workbench overhangs the support frame by about 5 inches. I put a 120V duplex every 2.5 feet or so along the frame under the overhang, facing out into the shop.
This keeps the top of the workbench clear of cords running from the back wall (as pictured in your "garage" sketch) when using sanders, heat guns, etc.
DD,
This is a nice idea. Is the workbench powered using a male-male extension cord to the wall? Sorry if the answer is obvious.
Bill
Me too ... but age based cynicism creeps into everything, if you let it.
How's your Eagle Scout doing these days? Strangely enough, it is the thought of folks like your son, and Leon's, that give us old cynics hope for the future.
That doesn't make any difference: branch circuit overcurrent protection is there to protect the branch circuit wiring, not the loads. If you want to protect a load, put a fuse on the load -- which, as I understand it, is pretty common practice in the UK, which makes his ignorance of the purpose of branch circuit overcurrent protection even less excusable.
That's *not* required. At least not by the NEC. All the NEC requires is that the outlets "shall have ground-fault circuit interrupter protection". It does not specify where that protection is located.
Yes, it is. Be careful taking wiring advice from this person. Even if the outlet is 100 meters from the breaker, the difference in trip speed due to the distance is on the order of half a microsecond.
There is one legitimate reason for putting the protection at the outlet: it's easier to reset if it trips -- mostly because it's easier to find.
Lew is right. But what do you think you might need to protect the equipment from? Consider this: you use 0.5A light bulbs on a 15A circuit all the time and never worry about it.
NO. You definitely want 12-3 with a 20A breaker for shop use.
Yes: you create a lot of unnecessary drywall repair work for yourself. All of the really important stuff to see is inside the main panel; what do you expect you might see behind the drywall besides a bunch of cables?
If the feed to the subpanel is coming from lugs in the main panel, then yes, you need to power off the main. If it's coming from a circuit breaker in the main panel -- which is a much better idea -- then there's really no need to power off the main as long as you don't put your fingers in places they don't belong. Make sure that the circuit breaker feeding the subpanel is off before you connect the feed to it, otherwise the shaft of your screwdriver becomes live, which could lead to unpleasant surprises. And let's be clear here: I am NOT talking about the disconnect breaker in the subpanel; I'm talking about the breaker that you put in the main panel to connect the subpanel feed from.
Always a good thing to remember. :-)
If you have the option of locating the dust collector outside the shop and having only the ducts inside, that's something to consider.
There are pluses and minuses either way. Having the DC outside the shop means less noise and dust inside the shop -- but more noise and dust outside. If you live in sufficiently rural area where the noise won't bother neighbors, think about putting the DC outdoors (protected from the weather, of course).
Thanks for asking. He's doing pretty well, has one year of college under his belt now, and is working two jobs this summer to earn money for the fall semester. He's also about half-way through a fairly ambitious project on his car ('96 Firebird, 3600 V6): swapping out the automatic transmission for a five-speed stick. Car's up on jackstands in the garage now. I'll be helping him put the manual transmission in there tomorrow evening after he gets home from work.
Meant to add this, too: Although that's not required by the NEC, it could be a requirement of your _local_ codes. Chicago, for example, has some requirements that go waaaay beyond what the NEC demands. Something about a bad fire a while back, I think... Don't know for sure if this is correct, but I seem to remember hearing a few years ago that Baltimore and Philadelphia have codes that are more restrictive than the NEC as well.
Yes, some of this is nonsense. Having the GFCI at the receptical is more convenience to reset and easier to see what happened if it trips.
Breaker panel GFCIs have been brutally expensive in years past compared to receptical types. They are getting cheaper. Many bubble tubs are wired with a receptical type GFCI at the panel, labelled and then a circuit taken to the tub due to price differences.
Tripping faster is nonsense. The GFCI senses differential current. OTOW it compares the hot leg current with the neutral current to see if they are the same. If there is a difference then there is current leaking to ground and a fault in the equipment. It does not protect the equipment from stalled currents or internal shorts unless it goes to the case. Mostly it protects the human by tripping out fast so the time the fault travels through your body is limited. Contrary to what some say they do not limit the actual current level amount. This does not matter where it is done.
I am not in the UK despite what the OCD boy thinks.
Bill
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"Doug Miller" wrote
A pontiac firebird, eh? A classic muscle car. And since pontiacs are now an endabgered species, it will probably be worth some money someday.
Tell him to take care of it and it will turn into an investment of sorts one of these days.
And he is one of the good ones. He is gonna make you proud of him, again and again.
Doug Miller, Thank you for your reply. It is very informative and helpful!
Well, the drywall there is probably almost 40 years old and on it's second main panel. As long as I am replacing 3/4 of the drywall on 2 walls, maybe 3 before I'm finished, I may as well make the drywall near the main panel look Nice! : )
I'll tell ya Mr. Miller. There are folks here who don't believe I should be doing anything to any walls that have any live wires in them! I appreciate the precision with which you have described the operation above. It reminds me of an anecdote which I have found humorous since I heard it:
There was a old blues singer, "Big Joe Williams" who frequented the barrelhouses and who I believe, besides for his music, was known for his temper, fighting, drinking and just being a "rough character". One day he decided he wanted to buy a gun. His friends escorted him to an purveyor of firearms (i.e. a gun store). They said to the store owner, "Mr. Williams here would like to buy a gun", meanwhile standing behind Joe Williams emphatically shaking their heads and mouthing "No, No, No!"
I suspect that what you wrote may have caused a similar reaction from some readers. Maybe they'll speak up if I am correct. : ) I doubt that I'll be adding any CBs to any live panels anytime soon...
Thank you again for your assistance. I'm hope to make meaningful progress during the next week.
Bill
Bill, here is something from the Antifaq I hope it helps:
5.1 HOW DO I WIRE MY SHOP?As my friend Doug, the journeyman cabinetmaker, says: there's only four things you gotta know about being an electrician:
S--- flows downhill, Payday is on Friday, It may be s--- to you but its bread and butter to them, and Every asshole is a potential customer.
Oops! That was about plumbers. Forget it. Anyway, Doug is just jealous of plumbers 'cause they make more money than cabinetmakers, just like Tom.
Actually, all the regulars and most of the newbies on the wreck are electrical experts. That's why any thread on wiring and electricity gets so many responses. Most of us work with electricity all the time. After all computers and power tools are electrical, and so's the TV we watch Norm on. If you want to change the plug on your tablesaw, you still need to know everything about wiring and amps and volts and watts and volt-amps and wire gauges and phases and power factors and impedance and resistance and plug configurations and panel sizes and capacitors and motors and switches and electrical codes.
But that's OK, don't be afraid. You can trust any wiring and electrical advice from anybody on the wreck, apply it and be absolutely sure that it will meet code and be perfectly safe. No point in getting ripped off by electricians or consulting an inspector. Just ask away on the group and you can be sure of getting a whole lot of accurate and consistent responses, just like when you ask any math question of all the rocket scientists on the wreck.
HTH
Luigi
----------------------------------- Way back when it was known as "Hogan's code" in honor of the chief electrical inspector.
Panel boards had to be switch and fuse since Hogan would not accept molded case c'bkrs.
This was for industrial, not residential.
There were all kind of cute things Hogan demanded and got, all of whiuch just increased the cost, not necessarily benefit.
Lew
No, a panel GFCI and an outlet GFCI are redundant. You need *one* GFCI per circuit, extras won't help. You need *one* breaker per circuit. Breakers and GFCIs serve two different purposes.
If you use a 30 amp breaker, you have to have everything permanent on that circuit rated for 30 amps - wiring and outlet. That means your TS needs a 30 amp plug, although code does not require the TS to have wiring rated for 30 amps. If you *do* put a 20 amp rated tool on a 30 amp circuit, it would be prudent (but not required by code) to put additional protection on that's sized for the tool.
I wouldn't use 14 gauge wire at all in a shop - that's limited to 15 amps, and many of my tools need 20 amp anyway, which means 12 gauge.
As for putting two 120v outlets on a single 240v wire - check with your local code and find out what the rules are. Most likely, you'll at least need to use a ganged breaker to protect the branch properly.
Just ask away on the group and you can be sure of getting a whole lot of accurate and consistent responses, just like when you ask any math question of all the rocket scientists on the wreck.
Luigi,
Your concerns are well-taken. But I do not require a lot of consistent responses. I think if 3 different contractors showed up at my door, they would not be consistent. I do not even think they would try to understand my needs as well as the folks here do. I have earned a PhD in mathematics so I can field at least some of your math questions with some authority, just as some of the folks here have been able to field my questions about electricity with the same sort of authority. I think you are under-estimating the amount of intellect which is here. Why you choose to take this point of view I am uncertain. I think it is not so difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. It is more difficult to navigate my attic--but I am working on that! : ) I wonder how many people learned something useful about GFCI today? I know I did--or at least, I think I did!
Best, Bill
RE: GFI pricing
There are two ways to a GFI device, a C'bkr that gets mounted in a panel or a receptacle that goes into a wall box.
Both have the same "smarts".
The C'bkr GFI is manufactured by the Circuit Protective Device industry.
The receptacle GFI is manufactured by the Wiring Device industry.
The two are totally different businesses.
Different cost structures, different marketing methods, etc, etc.
There is significantly more price pressure on wiring device products than on circuit protective products.
Lew
Yes. By panel GFCI, I meant a C-B with a built-in GFCI. I apologize for not being more careful in my writing. It is nice to know that having a GFCI at the panel suffices!
Thank you. I had been thinking about this ever since it came up. In my situation, I was thinking that the prudent thing to do, is to stick with the 20 Amp CBs, and consider installing heavier wire where I think I might like to have it someday. I learned "plenty" about 20, 30 and 50 amp 240v plugs and outlets a few months ago!
That's what I had in mind (ganged breaker). The reference to 14-3 was a momentary slip-up on my part. As I see it, and as someone else surely brought to my attention, is that the problem with such a circuit configuration is that it can be half-live and half-dead. Potentially confusing!
Thank you for your help! Bill
My understanding of the NEC is that one cannot have a duplex outlet within
30 inches to the left of right of a main panel or subpanel. This is correct, is it not? I'm laying out wall #2 now. SU is "heaven-sent" ! : )Bill
Bill, here is something from the Antifaq I hope it helps:
5.1 HOW DO I WIRE MY SH Luigi Zanasi, I see you pasted from something called "rec.woodworking's Antifaq". I never saw it referenced here before. Since you didn't post any of your own words, unless you wrote the Antifaq, what point were you trying to make? Sorry, if your post was intended as a joke--sometime humor passes by me unnoticed as such.Best, Bill
it might be of interest to anyone.
BTW, the "doubly-ganged C-B" is evidently referred to as "Tandem" if you haven't already seen them on your grocer's shelf! : )
Bill
Probably too late for that... the car was trashed by the second-previous owner -- DWI, ran off the road and over some object that tore the oil pan off, with consequent ruination of the engine. My wife's brother bought the wreck and a replacement engine, then he and my son spent the summer two years ago putting it back together, and when they were finished my son bought it from him. About six months later, my son crashed it and tore up the front end pretty badly -- he and I spent last spring restoring it. So I'm not sure there's a lot of investment potential left any more...
Thanks for the kind words, Lee.
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