Rethinking "Made in China"

[notbob]

Then the pendulum swung the other way and Japanese products were considered the best (cameras, electronics, etc) when, in fact, they were no more great than when they were considered crap. I had a closet full of dead Japanese stuff that barely made it to warranty. Perception is a lot of it.

The price thing about car parts is a little more complicated. When Japanese cars first hit our shores, parts were insane. $600 for one CV joint for a Civic. Later, aftermarket mfrs/rebuilders got into the act and drove prices waaaay down. I bought a PAIR of rebuilt joints for the same car for $125. Later, when rebuilding a Honda alternator, I got Honda parts cheaper from the dealer than the local discount parts store. Pays to shop around.

nb

[David Nebenzahl]

On 12/16/2009 3:03 PM Percival P. Cassidy spake thus:

Kodak did make some cameras used by serious photogs, even after the Japanese kicked our asses in that arena, but they were mostly obscure models used by specialists. Like their view (studio) cameras and lenses made for aerial photography, to name a couple. Their one top-of-the-line

35mm camera (the Ektra) was already out of production by that time. After that, about the best they could come up with were consumer-level cameras, like the Instamatic, which they did sell by the millions. But all high-quality stuff was, as you point out, either German (Leica, Voigtlander), Swedish (Hassy), or, mostly, Japanese (lessee: Nikon, Canon, Ricoh, Minolta, Miranda, Yashica, Olympus, Bronica, Fuji, etc., etc.

The single exception I can think of is the Graflex press cameras (Crown and Speed Graphics), made here in the US and used around the world up through the 1970s.

[Swingman]

What nonsense? ... you can't be that dense, eh? Shit happens in every country, culture, civilization - past, present, and future.

Then there's my handmade, Omer pin nailer, one of the best engineered nail guns that money can buy, made in Italy.

Once again, there is NOTHING like it, and it is "European engineered".

[Doug Miller]

Or owned a Fiat...

[Lew Hodgett]

-----------------------------------------------------

During the 60s, I was involved with bearing applications for automotive electrical systems.

There are more basic 203 ball bearings manufactured than all the rest of the bearing sizes combined.

Had the guy representing Japanese bearings come calling with some impressive stats as well as very attractive pricing.

As a bearing supplier competitor remarked, "First the bearings, then the alternator, vacuum sweeper, etc."

Took about 15-20 years, but they got there.

Lew

[Tim Daneliuk]

They said that about Japan in 1960. That nation then went on to hand Europe and the US their butts in the manufacturing of optics, electronics, and so forth.

Quality is not just a data point. It is a curve with the y-axis being price and the x-axis being quality. The curve rises asymptotically as you move to the right. The question is not "is it high quality?" The more usual question is, "Is it high enough quality for the desired task at hand AND is it worth the asking price?" Sometimes the quality you need justifies asymptotic costs - say when life support is involved. At other times a fairly low level of quality is all you need or are willing to pay for - say a tool you will only use once to solve a specific problem.

There are many examples of very successful companies and industries that learned how to manufacture "good enough" technology for some purpose. Microsoft is a great example of this. There were far better technologies around when Microsoft first entered the desktop OS business. But Microsoft figured out how to commoditize it at a price people could live with. Was it "high quality"? No, but it was "good enough" quality for the overwhelming majority of people and a multi-billion dollar industry (and company) was born.

That said, my experience for most tools is that saving money is a false economy. Good tools tend to last for the lifetime of the owner - or at least a very long time. Short term savings end up biting you in the hindquarters later on when you have to buy a replacement tool.

Incidentally, I'd argue that the Japanese are very much on par with the Europeans for many classes of tools these days. A Mitutoyo digital caliper is every bit the equal of a Brown & Sharpe for considerably less money, for example.

[Tim Daneliuk]

They were concerned that something integral to their national defense systems was under the exclusive control of the US.

[J. Clarke]

The high quality Japanese stuff came a decade or more after the high quality German stuff. But then the Japanese did the thing that they do best, fiddling with the design to see what people like and what people don't like, and ended up eating the Germans' lunch--the Germans were so sure that they knew the _right_ way to do things that they wouldn't fiddle around with the design to compete with the Japanese. But the Germans still excel at optical design--Panasonic and Sony both use the Germans for lens design.

In some markets though that approach didn't work, computers being one.

[Tim Daneliuk]

Having owned German optics for many years I can attest to their superiority over the Japanese glass. However this comes at a staggering cost. A great pro medium-format wide angle lens from Japan may run around $2000 (or less). The equivalent Hasselblad Distagon (German optics) is well over twice that. You are way out on the right side of the price-quality curve where it goes asymptotic - you're paying double or more to get perhaps 5% better performance, and then only in the most demanding of cases.

These were- and are- wonderful cameras. They're even better when you throw away the coke bottle lenses (Ektars) that came with them and shove a nice German Schneider onto the snout of the camera :)

[Swingman]

Then there's Rolls Royce, Bentley, Mercedes, BMW, the Lamborghini Reventon , Maserati, the Bugatti Veyron, the McLaren F1, and the Pagani, to name just a few examples of "European engineering" that there is NOTHING else like.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi, Not only Chinese, that is human nature. You have to be vigilant on quality.

[Tony Hwang]

Hmmm, Made U.S.A. Made in EU" Really? 100%? Economy stands on bottom line these days. You can't f*ck China, she is too big/powerful now.

[Lew Hodgett]

==================================== Depends.

Germans build most of the cars. Italians sew some great shoes and great hand built cars, tailored suits and what great food. I wouldn't want a car built by the French. The Dutch provide some great chocolate manufacturing machinery. Then there are the Swiss. If you have to ask, you can't afford. So it depends. ===============================

Having represented several European instrument manufacturers over the years, it is obvious they have a whole different way of looking at things.

Europeans expect to perform routine maintenance on a regular basis, while for the most part US users have adopted the Andrew Carnegie approach of install the equipment, run it till it drops, remove to the junk yard, and install new equipment.

Most European equipment will not survive without regular maintenance, USA goods OTOH, usually will for an extended period of time.

BTDT, no T-shirt needed.

Lew

[Steve]

This is called marketing to a price point. One interesting extension to this is Fender guitars -- how much to you want to pay for your Strat? Indonesian, Chinese, Korean, Mexican, or American?

From the audience, they all look pretty much the same*. But to the experienced player...

*Except for the ones "lovingly" aged, that is, and you'll pay dearly for someone beatin' the Hell out of your axe.

[Lew Hodgett]

You don't usually f*ck your banker or a big customer.

Lew

[Swingman]

When "she" starts making quality, innovative, well engineered tools like Festool does I'll start buying Chinese. Until then, in a tool buying sense, f*ck China, and the US also ... just in case you think there is discrimination involved.

People who work with their hands know the difference ... keep that in mind.

[Swingman]

Much worse than that, with regard to quality, is 'engineering to a price point".

[Tony Hwang]

I am not Chinese, LOL!

[Tony Hwang]

Hi, Discerning hands and ears can tell. Actually real good hands can make any axe sound good but it is more difficult. Only poor craftsman blames the tool. BTW, I have quite a few vintage LP, Fender, Gibson, Martin, etc. and Marshall, Fender, Boogie, etc. in my basement studio.

[Jules]

Yes, but my point is that there are times you *can't* pay for quality. My fridge/freezer is over 30 years old and still going - but I don't think I could walk into any modern appliance store and say "sell me a fridge that'll still be going in 2039".

cheers

Jules