Re: Do you support educational vouchers in schools?

[Hillary Israeli]

** *>*The initial busing, to allow those restricted to go to *>*schools which they could manage, was good. When it came *>*to "racial balance", it was bad. * *>I still don't really understand by what means you think bussing "killed" *>any particular schools. * *It caused them to lower their standards. This did more *than reduce the amount children learned; it greatly *hampered, in many cases permanently, their ability to *think.

I must misunderstand still. If you are talking about bussing simply to equalize for racial balance, then how can this result in a lowering of standards? You mean the standard was to have white kids, and adding in black kids lowered the standard? Or you mean the standard was to have kids from the Right Side of the Tracks, and adding in kids from the Wrong Side lowered the standard? Either way, I'm not liking your thinking here.

*>*>What is a "hyperegalitarian?" * *>*Someone who believes that people cannot be unequal *>*in any manner. * *>No it's not. There is no such word. * *Words are coined daily. This one should be easy.

Words are generally supposed to effect communication. Using made-up words hardly furthers that goal. Just my opinion!

[Herman Rubin]

If the schools were teaching a curriculum, with the levels of classes maintained, it would not be too bad, but it might still be a problem. But by this time, it had already been the practice to reduce the content to what the weaker students could learn, the "lowest common denominator".

In addition, time spent on a bus is almost entirely LOST time. In some cases, busing added more than an hour to the "school day". Before integration, black children frequently went to schools farther than the white schools they were asking to get in. But busing for racial balance provided for a lot less time for learning, homework, and other activities.

Also, no matter where you put the tracks, the kids on one side and those on the other side will not have the same mental abilities nor the same types of opportunities to learn beyond the limitations of the schools, from the beginning. The schools in the 30's tried to eliminate these opportunities, but after Sputnik, they were forced to bring the parents back into the loop.

I would expect someone who understands English to be able to understand "hyperegalitarian" without much difficulty. Even "hyperinfracaniphiliac" should not be too hard.

[toto]

Why is it that busing for integration is questioned, but busing for distance is not. The same amount of time is spent on the bus. It shouldn't matter what the purpose of the busing is. Of course, if you are against busing kids then you have to build schools closer to their homes.

-- Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Herman Rubin]

Suppose you have two areas, with an hour ride between them. Each has schools. Busing students from one area to the other just to get racial balance is what is stupid.

I believe that we will eventually have much done with electronic classes. There are not that many things which require physical contact to learn. More and more of this IS being done now in regions where the distances are great. This can also be done where students of a given type are not concentrated in sufficient numbers.

[Bob LeChevalier]

Only if you think "racial balance" is stupid. Replace "racial balance" by "an academically challenging school" and you probably would have no problem with it.

lojbab

[Joe]

I'd like to get a voucher to learn some more woodworking. I thought this was a woodworking NG. Start your own NG for politics and leave our NG alone.

[Herman Rubin]

Racial balance has NEVER been legislated; what has been legislated is no racial discrimination.

It is one thing to travel to a school which gives a substantially stronger education, but is spending two hours a day doing nothing worth it? Busing two ways to get racial balance certainly does not get justified by this type of argument.

[Joe]

THIS IS A WOODWORKING NEWS GROUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[toto]

You obviously haven't met some of the child prodigies I know.

It's not a matter of burning out on *learning* necessarily, but of burning out on pushing oneself to graduate or to get a degree or whatever else the ultimate *goal* is.

Example here. My dd has a friend who was a computer nerd early. He was programming for HP as a freshman in HS. He played chess, did all the AP math and science he could get, went to Northwestern for math courses after finishing his two AP calculus courses by sophomore year. Where is he now? Well, he quit college after changing majors 4 times, I believe. He runs a computer lab at a school, but his major interest is in philosophy.

Then there are several other *early graduators* who have dropped out of the *rat race* entirely and are living life working minimum wage jobs because they prefer not to be stressed out in terms of their work. They still learn things, but they do it on their own time and without any interest in getting a degree out of it or making money off it.

I just don't think that graduating early is a good goal. Sure, if you want to move ahead do so. Most kids though are not at the same level in all facets of learning so they may be better off going ahead in only a few subjects of interest and staying with their age group in other subjects. Or they may be better off entirely simply being kids rather than rushing into adulthood.

It's very individual.

-- Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Bob LeChevalier]

I know enough.

It's about parental control-freaks, as often as not.

lojbab

[Bob LeChevalier]

Since my postings contain criticisms that I developed myself, after researching that his posted information was false, there is nothing "standard" about what I wrote.

I don't give a shit about your wife; I wouldn't buy her book. It is YOUR credibility that is at stake. You spout your ideological bullshit, but have nary a verifiable fact to support anything you claim. Well the claim that your wife is selling a book could be at least slightly supported by a URL.

I meet lots of real people. You aren't one of them; you are a phony.

lojbab

[Banty]

You said you had written books and your wife had homeschooling websites. I asked for cites. You said "John Gatto" I asked if you were him. You said "no".

So we're back to those books supposedly you (no, not John Gatto) have written.

Cites to your book, please.

Banty

[R. Steve Walz]

------------------------ One you abandoned early on. Steve

[R. Steve Walz]

--------------------- You're a delusional posturing liar. Steve

[J. Clarke]

Burning out on learning and burning out on school are different things. And it's easy to burn out on school.

[toto]

You claimed your wife wrote one.

-- Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Bob LeChevalier]

I don't watch "TEEVEE".

lojbab

[Bob LeChevalier]

Your credibility on Usenet is.

Nope.

So we know you aren;t yet another ideological blowhard (i.e. liar)

No. Homeschooling is good for some, indifferent for some, not worth the hassle for many, and impossible for many.

It is satisfactory. At least, so the public rates the public schools in the annual Kappan poll.

There is always room for improvement.

lojbab

[toto]

Here is the crux of the matter. What these folks don't seem to understand is that as a society, we are attempting to educate all of our children.

I've had experience with many homeschoolers. There are some that do a very good job, but in general once the student is past elementary school, they don't homeschool themselves, they hire tutors or send the student to classes at local colleges or have them take distance learning classes. Those options do work well. But parents who don't have the resources to pay for those options don't do as well at teaching their children through the academic high school classes unless they themselves have a college education and good grasp of the subject matter above the high school level. That's not *bad,* it is simply a fact of life. When you talk about parents who are poor and don't have any education themselves, homeschooling beyond the basics becomes impossible or *iffy.* I have met several kids who returned to the public schools well behind where their classmates were. Even in this school though there were kids who failed. I doubt that homeschooling would have provided them with anything better, though. Do you really think a parent who is a crack addict or alcoholic can homeschool her child?

I have no quarrel at all with people who choose to homeschool as long as they manage to teach to a minimum standard of academics. I do think though that children need to have some empathy for those who have less than they do and whose parents are not able to provide the same things that their parents can provide.

Unfortunately, public schooling is quite uneven. There are very good public schools (my ds and dd attended one of the best and got an education that surpasses that of many kids who were attending their colleges from other high schools). Even in poor schools, btw, there are often kids who end up with good educations. The inner city school I taught at for 8 years had an honors program that allowed the best of our kids to attend and succeed at excellent universities. One of my favorite honor students attended University of Chicago in its program for marine biology.

Absolutely.

-- Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Joe]

IS THIS A WOODWORKING NEWS GROUP????????????????????????????????????????????