Re: Do you support educational vouchers in schools?

[Bob LeChevalier]

Public schools were first promoted by Martin Luther (See the underlined section):

[dragonlady]

I can't answer for Dorothy.

My answer is "yes" -- I want to pay taxes to educate ALL of the children. And I'd prefer a system that provides for a decent education regardless of the local tax base, so some of my money may well go to areas that are far away from where I live.

My children are no longer in school (the youngest graduated almost a year ago) but I can't imagine my feelings about this will change. Many of the older adults I know are staunch supporters of public schools, and of using tax money to support them.

[Herman Rubin]

Remote classes and independent study. Remote classes are within budgetary reach; one problem with doing things in schools is that there may not be enough local children for a class. We do not know nearly enough to dispense with the use of teachers, and I doubt we ever will, as computers do not have the reasoning power of people; they are super-fast sub-imbeciles.

Do not ask me to produce a fully designed educational process; it cannot be done that quickly. It will have to be done by those who do not follow lesson plans; they will have to improvise as they go. But these people are not the ones who can teach the same course over and over, so they will have to provide instructions for the ones who can learn concepts, but who are not too creative to do the same thing over and over.

[toto]

So you will privately fund the fire and police services for yourself and self-insure.

I was never in Kansas, but nevermind.

I believe that we should have a federal education system as Germany, Switzerland and other first world countries do and I believe that we ought to fund this system through federal taxes. We should NOT fund church schools in any way as the separation of church and state is part of what made the United States unique and keeps us strong. It's not popular to say this, but states' rights keeps us from having the education we need all over the country. The standard should be quite high, imo, but it should also allow for several paths. We should not necessarily insist that every student has to go to college, but that option should be open to them for a longer time. Thus a student who drops out of high school academics may need to have vocational options open, but be allowed to return to the academic track when and if s/he decides that s/he needs it and will work for it. We should not depend on property taxes to fund our schools either since this causes the disparity between the schools in wealthy areas and schools in poor areas. We need to bring the funding for poor schools up to the standard where it needs to be. My ds and dd went to a great public school in the suburbs of Chicago. The property taxes for that school were quite high. I taught in an inner city school where the funding was inadequate. The students there were

*not* the problem, but the fact is that we had fewer resources to enable them to go on to college and they needed *more* not less.

We should also standardize our curriculum so that if a student in New Hampshire takes Algebra I and moves to a school in Florida or Mississippi or California, the course he has taken is the same course in all those schools and he doesn't have to start over because the Algebra I course in Mississippi covered quadratics, but his course did not. Call a course by a name that makes sense and cover the same topics in that course all over the country.

-- Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[toto]

Tell me you don't want students indoctrinated into thinking that the capitalist system of economics as it exists in the US is the *best* system that can be devised. I don't believe that you want *free thinkers* if they oppose your own ideas.

-- Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[toto]

I note that you snipped all the arguments and made an assertion that you can educate all of our children for that amount which I am quite sure you cannot do. You haven't the ability to individually contract any such thing. Note that all of us in society are responsible for this *not* a single person.

When *you* have taught children in the ghetto to read to the college level and to do algebra, geometry and other mathematics for several years, get back to me. And use your own money as you are so fond of not paying taxes.

LOL. Funny boy!

-- Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[toto]

Except that if you do return in 5 days, I won't be answering you any further. You have no arguments to present, just ad hominems.

-- Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Alan Lichtenstein]

Dorothy, don't you realize that you're dealing with a dogmatic ideologue? And a common characteristic of dogmatic ideologues is the propensity for standing on their soapboxes and ranting, oblivious to any reasoned discussion. Such is the case with this ideologue, whose only response to substantive assertions is to demean in a condescending manner.

You can't reason with an ideologue, because by definition they refuse to be confused by the facts, which they either ignore or make up as they go along.

Alan

[toto]

LOL. And exactly how will you enforce this on usenet.

I will answer *if* I feel like answering. If you ignore it, that's fine since I am not writing for *you* but for those who lurk so they can see how poor your arguments are.

-- Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Banty]

Yep. Nothing but assertions and presumptions (we're all "socialist", we all went to public schools, we're all brainwashed dummies, etc.etc.).

He doesn't know which facts he has and which he doesn't, obviously.

Oh but he's so much fun :-)

Banty

[toto]

Which is why I don't write for *him* at all, but for others who do understand how to reason and discuss things.

-- Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[toto]

..

I didn't start the x-posts, but I generally do not cut ngs out unless I know that no one is answering from a particular group.

Why don't you stop net-copping? Or at least netcop the original poster not those who followup a discussion they want to have.

At any rate, I won't be answering him further probably.

-- Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[dragonlady]

You are, indeed, playing stupid games.

See, I also want YOU to pay your fair share of taxes to educate all of hte children.

But you knew that.

[Alan Lichtenstein]

A common tactic of the ignorant reactionary right is to stand on their soapbox and fling emotionally charged ad homenim attacks. The diversionary tactic of retreating to loaded emotional phrases in lieu of reasoned discourse has long been the retreat of the shallow of thought when having to deal with adverse opinion( especially when that opinion is backed up by evidence ). Especially when that opposing opinion is well written and indicative of good verbal and written skills( which the small-minded reactionaries of thought usually lack ).

The fun to be had with an ideologue is to goad them into ranting even more irrationally than they did initially.

Alan

[Banty]

It's a set of tactics not limited to "the reactionary right". I associate it with ideologues and extremists in general. Those on the left included.

Banty

[dragonlady]

Translation: Since I can't make a decent argument for my case, and have convinced no one, I will declare myself the winner and call everyone else names.

[toto]

I don't know what the fascination is with *graduating early.* It's no guarantee that a student won't burn out. OTOH, some kids at ETHS did graduate early. Many of those went on to the top universities and graduated from those universities in 3 to 4 years too.

Not if your own thinking is any indication of what you taught him. You don't seem to understand logic or how to refute arguments in discussions at all.

In engineering or liberal arts? Just curious. My ds completed a chemical engineering degree with a double major (computers) and a minor in economics in 4 years. Most engineering majors take 5 years because of the number of courses they have to take.

And your son was in daycare during the day?

I think you are missing some of the costs of his education. The classroom space you used is already part of your home, but would need to be taken into account if you are going to compare costs for schooling.

Also, you need to account for your time (or your wife's time) at some salary here.

Cool. Please tell us the titles of your books and the publishers. (or were they self-published?)

I think you are making money off homeschooling parents with your subscriptions on your websites too. Please let us know how poor folks with no computer or internet access would be able to use your materials. (Many of my students didn't have a phone, much less a computer)

-- Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Alan Lichtenstein]

Indeed.

Alan

[Banty]

Ah - then you have cites. Please let us know where you may have any underpinnings to your rantings here.

What books have you published?

Banty

[Banty]

But you don't see yourself in this description?

Banty