Frameless Cabinetry

[jhewitt]

Please advise where I can find more detailed information on "line boring system" Thanks....

John Hewitt, Malaga, Spain

[mare]

Framed cabinets are invented by men who don't cook, who never have to reach into the corners to get stuff out of the cabinets. And you often have to remove things from the cabinet first to get to other things that are behind the frames.

Frameless cabinets are also so much easier to clean and to keep them that way. Women prefer them. And some men do too.

[Charlie Self]

Say what? I don't know what frame widths you have been dealing with, but anything difficult to remove in a framed cabinet probably is a stronog indicator that the cabinet is overloaded anyway, at least in bulk.

If women prefer them, how come this is the first I've ever heard of it. Hell, I'm making some new cabinets for my own kitchen, all framed, and my wife is delighted, and has yet to tell me she'd prefer Eurocrap. If she did, I'd build it--I must have a 32mm bit somewhere--even though I don't like the stuff.

Easier cleaning? There, you may be right. Plain flat surfaces are easier to clean than paneled doors, though some Euro styles now use paneled doors, too. Ease of cleaning, though, seems to me to depend more on the finish and its quality than on a particular design.

[Mike]

If I had to guess, as I assume you did...... I would guess that framed cabinets were invented by some carpenter who wanted a structurally sound product. I would also guess that frame less cabinets were invented by some designer who was more concerned with cost and/or his design idea than with any structural issues related to cabinet making.

This would be your only point with which I can agree.

Then why do I install about 40 kitchens a year with framed cabinets compared to maybe one set of frame less a year? While we're guessing, I would guess that in 90% of those kitchens, a woman picked the cabinet style.

Mike O.

[Lee DeRaud]

Only if your definition of "overloaded" means "not leaving 4 inches of wasted space".

Lee

[Lee DeRaud]

Or by someone who realized that such cabinets are fastened together and to walls and aren't being used to supplement the house framing.

Lee

[mare]

And didn't have modern tools and materials.

Design is important. And then I mean functionality and not looks. BTW, the average kitchen will be 'renovated' when a house or appartment is sold, because the new owner doesn't like the color or just wants something different again. It doesn't have to last 60 years and have dovetailed drawers etc.

If they don't know any better why won't they choose something new? People are notorious conservative.

I've installed a couple of kitchens myself, all frameless, but my clients are not the general audience. They come to me because I make nifty kitchens with details that make them usable for cooks, and not the same thing they can buy elsewhere. My kitchens don't have raised panel doors, because I don't like it. And if the client wants that they have to go elsewhere. If I make a kitchen it's a kitchen of 2005 and not one like their grandmothers had. Call it a niche. I can't make 40 kitchens a year though, cause I spent a little more that 1.5 weeks on a kitchen...

[Edwin Pawlowski]

"mare" wrote in message

Sounds interesting. Have any photos?

[Mike]

But I believe the comment you made was that women prefer frame less cabinets. In my experience, that is simply not the case.

We build and install kitchens in new homes. My "niche" seems to be whatever those customers want. Don't get me wrong, I would like to build all frame less cabinets because it takes less time for us. The bottom line is, very few of my customers want them.

BTW, with two carpenters and a helper working, building a kitchen in a week is not much of a challenge.

Mike O.

[Mike]

I will admit that I've been building mostly face framed cabinets for

20+ years and may be stuck in my old school ways. Having said that, I'll never be convinced that the bottom shelf of a 30" frame less wall cabinet, made of 3/4" melamine, is structurally adequate. IMHO you can easily put enough weight on that shelf to cause visible sagging over time.

Mike O.

[Lee DeRaud]

And that can't happen in a face-frame design? I *wish*.

I would be a lot more impressed with the claim of increased structural integrity if I had ever seen a face-framed cabinet where the lower rails were rabbetted to actually give that shelf some support.

If you insist on comparing hand-built custom face-frame cabinets with stuff from Ikea, you might be able to win this argument. But that is a question of quality of workmanship and materials, *not* the inherent design.

Lee

[mare]

Not in the US maybe. Here in French Canada I have no problem to convince my clients.

[mare]

I'm working on my website as we speak. But due to 'too busy' it doesn't progress very fast.

[Mike]

If you glue a piece of 1 1/2" x3/4" thick hardwood to the front of a

3/4" melamine shelf you actually believe it is no stronger than without the hardwood? Try this, find your nearest face framed cabinet and grab hold of the top rail and do a chin up. Now, try that with a melamine frame less cabinet.

I have no question that the framed cabinet is stronger and I doubt many here would disagree with that. The question is, are they strong enough? Obviously some people believe they are.

Mike O.

[Lee DeRaud]

Glued and clamped up like I would making a wide panel? Sure. But how well is the typical kitchen cabinet faceframe actually attached to the box?

I'd guess either one will simply pull out of the wall: I weigh a lot more that the typical set of dishes.

And my point was that the frameless boxes are already more than strong enough. If you like the framed style enough to tolerate the functional compromises, go for it, just don't use irrelevant arguments to justify your decision.

Lee