Flesh Sensing Kapex, Track Saws, Domino ??

https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/festool-buys-sawstop/31523/
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On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 14:45:12 +0000, Spalted Walt

Oh, crap! Now I'm going to have to sell all my Festools! ;-)
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On 7/5/2017 9:45 AM, Spalted Walt wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took Gass seriously.
I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have this type technology. IIRC the current Festool jigsaw was delayed because of a feature that was not right for the American consumer.
This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.
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@swbelldotnet says...

Once the Germans get sick of Gass and give him the sack I might consider buying one. But not until Gass is out of the company.
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On 7/8/2017 12:32 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

Feeling emotional today?
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@swbelldotnet says...

Grow up.
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On 7/8/2017 8:31 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

If you make your decisions based on emotion, maybe you should grow up.
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@swbelldotnet says...

Interesting that you found it appropriate to change the conversation from Sawstop to me. Do you have a crush on me or something?
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On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass, nev er met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defen ding the blade stop patents.
A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar company wit h a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology as they have a ggressively done with their own products.
My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the technolo gy and its ancillary developments. With their teams of patent attorneys an d the own marketing plans, no doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology until they no longer can.
We may see something else that performs the same task, but I would readily bet we don't see the SawStop technology outside of the TTS stable of produc ts.
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com says...

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most of the industry adopted the technology.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly altruistic with regard to safety technologies.

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On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:

k

.
never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements, but it co uld be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it. While furthe ring his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into d efending the blade stop patents.

and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology as they ha ve aggressively done with their own products.

nology and its ancillary developments.

e

c

Just a question, not an attack:
If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows other t o incorporate it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty arrangeme nt - would you still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that Gass is part of the company?
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Some will always make decisions based on non pertinent emotions. It's the only way they know how to choose.
The cost to offer a feature on a product is inconsequential if your customer is willing to pay for it. Proven time and again with the success of each new line of saws that SS has introduced.
Given SS's success and dominance, in a relative short amount of time, and the obvious disappearance of some brands and their respective models in woodworking businesses, I would say that not paying for the licenses and offering their customers a choice to to buy this safety technology was far more costly than the license.
Before SS I recall being able to touch and feel, at local stores, the larger DeWalt hybrid TS's, Hitachi contractor saws, Powermatic contractor saws, Delta Unisaws and contractor saws, ShopSmith multifunction machines, Steel City table saws. Today in the our country's 4th largest city/metro area your obvious choices have shrunk to SawStop, Powermatic, and Jet if you want to touch and feel a non bench top sized TS.
In the past 15 or so years, with the introduction of each new model/class of TS, those brands/models listed above have one by one disappeared from local retailers floors.
I would say that Festool was pretty smart with the acquisition of SawStop. Obviously more costly than just buying a license to offer the technology but also an investment into remaining relevant.
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On 7/9/17 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:

So Leon, are you ready for your next Domino to have a steel spike explosively shoot into the motor armature and the bit get vaporized by a laser when your finger gets too close to the cutter? 8^)
I'll be very interested if Festool does come out with a table saw. Not necessarily to buy one, but to see what innovative features they might come up with. The TS has not changed much in the past century beyond a raise/tilt system and a fence, what truly game changing feature could possibly be next (besides more safety stuff)?
-BR
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On 7/9/2017 9:12 AM, Brewster wrote:

LOL. It would probably be beneficial but not so much as with a TS or BS.
The design of plate joiners and the Domino make them pretty safe. BUT the Kapex could certainly benefit.

My guess is that Festool would/could probably introduce this technology to their Kapex, maybe their planers... I doubt that they would want to start making a Festool TS with this feature since they now own a company that does make TS's. Festool seems, at least here, to focus on the portable power tools. The TS is less portable with the exception of the job site contractors saw. I guess Festool could share technologies and maybe offer a better fence other than the Beis clone. Something like the old Delta Unifence comes to mind. Maybe not a wobble but perhaps an oscillating blade option for dados.
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On 07/09/2017 11:23 AM, Leon wrote: ...

I can't see much need at all on planer unless you're thinking of handheld jobbers (which I guess is all Festool would have, anyway) so maybe.
I think the biggest safety spot albeit not so much in use any more w/ the advent of the larger router is the spindle shaper (or the router mounted as a shaper). There's a chunk of spinning steel that can do some major damage in a hurry. I doubt it could meet the proposed CPSC spec, but it could minimize the trauma otherwise.
Festool'll have to stay out of the equation on the TS from the EU regulation standpoint or there will be no dado head of any type; EU reg's prohibit them and I think enforce user compliance by not allowing an arbor shaft long enough to mount one...
I was expecting that from CPSC before they actually took up Gass's complaint, meself...as EU had already led the way.
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On 7/9/2017 2:02 PM, dpb wrote:

Yeah, the Festool hand held planer.

I wonder if the shapers, and mostly because they spin at a relative low RPM compared to a TS blade, if they could make an electromagnetic brake much like cordless drills use.

Yeah there is that. And I wonder what the issue with a dado blade is with the EU regulation. But with that knowledge I think it is more about stacking blades than cutting dado's. If the arbor oscillated like a spindle sander does a single blade could be used. As for as the EU is concerned I do not think a dado blade is the issue as you can get dado blades that are fixed width. I really think it is about the multiple stacked blades that is the issue. I think with so many surfaces touching each other extra pressure is needed to prevent the mass from coming loose on the arbor. More than a simple single blade. I witnessed this once on my saw, I did not properly tighten the dado set and it had enough mass and momentum that the stack continued to spin well after the arbor stopped spinning. And on my right tilt saw it could have loosened the nut enough to fall off.
Check out this Felder dado blade. Actually stacked but only two really wide dado blades that engage on the arbor and two dowels that lock the blades to prevent slipping between each blade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v
PzXIqzQXM
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As I recall, and I haven't seen this discussed in years, it was spindown time. Dado sets take longer to spin down than a normal blade, and apparently European Regulators can't wait that long. Maybe the saw made that whirring noise dado sets make and they need to change their pants?
Puckdropper
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On 7/9/2017 3:24 PM, Puckdropper wrote:

Spin down time would not seem to be so as they do allow large massive dado blades.
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On 07/09/2017 2:27 PM, Leon wrote: ...

...
All the shapers I've got are 3X or so the rpm of of TS...even the low range on the 2-speed is 7,000 rpm. A 10" TS manufacturer's max tip speed will limit RPM to something under 5,000 to 5,500 iirc w/o looking up specific numbers.
Anyways, shapers run at quite a lot higher rpm than do TS's owing to the tip diameter of cutters being smaller so need it for the tip speed.
Think routers; 20 to 27,000 ain't unusual for the same reason; the router bit diameter is much smaller so needs to spin faster to compensate.
There's quite a lot of mass on a 1" shaper spindle w/ a 6" panel-raiser on it...it'd take a sizeable EM to shut it down quickly enough to make and difference on the accident scenario methinks... :)
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On 7/9/2017 4:43 PM, dpb wrote:

OH! Nevermind. I was under the impression that they ran really slow, not just much slower than a router. Thanks for pointing that out.

Yeah I remember that now, IIRC I mentioned on a post, several posts ago, that tip speed was important on any tool/cutter. IIRC the discussion was why you could not put a router bit in a drill press and get satisfactory results.

Totally agreed! Your lights would dim, probably. ;~)
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