When it comes or opions, or quality of work, one would do well to NEVER put undue trust in any tradesman met in a bar. ;)
You can bet he did not ... DAMHIKT. LOL
My last two, of three, remodels in the last twelve months also had special medical needs of the inplace inmates to take into account. Try that for a bit of extra stress in a business already stressful for the trustworthy. :)
As far as Festool goes ... My Festool devices have consistenntly made me more money than any other tool I've ever owned. I pity those ignorant of the benefit/price ratio, for they know not of what they speak.
They do actually go on sale and you can get a reduced price most any day when buying a combination. Why do they not go on sale often, they want to protect their retailers. If every one has to sell for the same price, all one retailer can offer over the next retailer is better service. That is a win situation for the buyer that has the money and wants the quality and service. Are the tools expensive, absolutely. Are they over priced, not if your work requires a better brand tool to give the results you are wanting. For the majority of wood hackers Festool is way out of line. Think of a drivers ed student thinking he needs a Indy car for his first car.
I suppose that all has to do with the neighborhood you live in and the quality of work you produce. Would you be ashamed to tell some one in an apartment how much you paid for your home?
Do any of these guys at your "low class watering hole" make a handsome living, wish that they could retire? Is this low class watering hole a level or two above sitting under a bridge with homeless people drinking ripple? What quality of tools do you think the homeless use, do you think that perhaps they would think what you pay for tools is too much? It is all relative.
I would not actually call those at the "low class watering hole" the real thing just because they don't use Festool. When I was in the automotive business, specifically the new car dealership business, I was the service sales manager. I had 35-40 mechanics and several made very good livings. One in particular was about two years younger than me,
27, and very often was the subject of conversation at the owner/management meeting held weekly. This particular mechanic very often made more money per month than the owner. We are talking in excess of $10K per month in 1983 dollars. He was truly the real thing too and bought the finest tools offered.
>
I'm certainly not a "rich banker" but for much of my life I couldn't afford good so bought what I could afford (mostly Crapsman). I got sick of using the garbage and kept them far too long because I didn't want to throw them away. At one point I just said never again - if I can't afford good tools, I'll simply wait until I can. I can now afford pretty much whatever I can justify to myself. I may have to wait for a while to buy the best but if it's important to me, that's what I buy. So, yes, I do have a couple of Festools. There are several tools in their lineup that I just can't justify, though.
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:51:18 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
Sure, I know it too. But, it's not near as universal as some would have us believe.
And that's why the runner ups will always thrive. I've got one or four routers sitting here that have served me for a long time. Would I like a $1000 Festool OF 2200? You're damned right I would, but at this point in my life it can't make enough of a change for me to commit. And, I need the money for other things.
But, I do own several other Festool products, the Domino being the most important one. (It's actually Leon's fault.) After seeing what it could do compared to my lowly biscuit joiner, and with copious amounts of questions happily answered by Leon, I ran out to get one. Haven't regretted it one day since.
Many of their responses might be dependent on the type of contractors they were. But, just speaking about the Domino here, it would be really interesting to take your representative three contractors and show them what the Domino could do along side a biscuit joiner.
Similarly, and again dependent on the type of contracting they did, I wonder how interested they'd be in some apparently regular sounding products that were mostly dust free.
I haven't done any home contracting for near thirty five years, but I
*do* remember how much of a pain it was when working onsite in a client's home to keep it dust free.
Dust barriers, walling off part of a house, time it took to sweep up, making sure you didn't track dust all over the place. It's not perfect with Festool dust collection, but it's sure as hell a lot better than it was.
Some of what you say is ultimately true, but then, the Domino is what I first think of when I think "Festool".
My main interest in woodworking is cabinetmaking. Although I haven't done it professionally for quite a few years, to the greatest extent, I've used the same tried and true actions and tools to build my cabinets. That's changed marginally over the years.
Enter the Domino. Now my cabinetmaking goes faster, is easier, more exact and very much more efficient.
What if any tool have you ever owned that had a similar impact on you Mike? I'm not usually the one to go overboard with a new tool, but the impact the Domino had on my woodworking was profound. What else can I say?
If you don't have a use for one, then no problem. But if you do have a use for one and more than often than not, there's no substitute. And that really has very little to do with the money.
Depends on what you do. The bulk of my original contracting in clients homes was altering and replacing the existing cabinetmaking. And much of that cabinetmaking was building in place.
Typical construction was slicing up sheets of plywood in a driveway and taking them inside to be assembled. A Domino back then would have been invaluable. I'd have to assume it would be just as valuable now.
If I was building in my shop, then there wasn't as much of an impact, but there was still some anyway you look at it. Despite Leon's over the top enthusiasm with Festool, he actually does a tremendous amount of work in his shop. Why should anybody doubt his claims of greatly increased efficiency?
As far as the rest of the tools you mentioned go, the only one I can comment to is the sanding. Festool sanders with the appropriate Festool dust collector are noticeably more efficient with the dust collection. That lack of a greater amount of dust *always* has a significant impact in a client's home.
Now, if it's a total gut job, not much of a difference, but that wasn't my shtick back then.
But, I understand all of what you're saying/asking. The march of Festool sales is inexorable. But, its pricing will always limit it to a certain strata.
Depends on how you define the differences in this case. Without a doubt, a dovetail joint has more glue edges which certainly offers greater and stronger joints.
But, dovetails take longer to create, are certainly more difficult to create and if you screw up one, the whole project is most likely ruined. Additionally, dovetails are very much a personal choice when considering how you want your projects to look.
Now the Domino. It's faster to use, easier to use, may offer some leeway if you make a mistake and gives a clean, simple look with all of the joining mechanism of itself hidden.
Two different animals as far as I'm concerned. It's like comparing an Aston Martin Vanquish to a Ford, any ford. They're two different beasts and meant to be used differently.
Yeah, I know, Festool products cost more than the Aston Martin too. :)
AND the cut being the final cut. And that is not just a Festool thing any more, the Makita and DeWalt saws can do this now also although I could not testify as to which works better in all aspects.
Yep ... I haven't seen a _need_ thus far to own anything other than the four Festool sanders, a TS75 track saw, and the CT22E dust extractor that can be used with all the above.
While a few of their other products would be "nice to have" (some drills, the big Domino) I really can't justify replacing the excellent tools I already own that perform those jobs unless there is a clear need, and opportunity (I generally price absolutely _required_ tools into a job, upfront ... not everyone can do that) to do so.
Depends far more on prices that other quality tools are that will do the job.
Bullshit. The quality of ones work in no way, shape or form depends on whether you use a shop vac or festool, a Milwaukee or festool, or even a Ryobi or a festool. You can sell that to guys that have their shop in their living room, but not to me.
Would you be ashamed to tell some one in an apartment how much you paid for your home?
Nice try, but stupid. By "low class" I meant it was not a club that cost $50 grand a year to belong.
Oh, damn, I forgot, you think a caddy truck is junk and I reckon drink $500 bottles of wine whilst sucking up dirt with your $500 festering vacuum cleaner.
No, they wouldn't I don't pay $500 for a damn vac.
That's for sure.
They are the "real thing" because they are professionals that have been in the business for 20 to 50 years. I know it must really piss you off that most in the trades don't use festering tools, but that's how it is.
When I was in the
My guess is every one of the guys I mentioned make more money than the other 35-40 mechanics you had working for you. Two of them make more in a week than your guy makes a month. Not sure what that has to do with anything, but, if you want to impinge upon their skills in the trades because they don't use, or even heard of festools, you are blowing smoke.
This is true. Two contractors did things like small building, garages, homes, home additions, kitchen, bath remodeling, that sort of stuff. One of those was the only guy that had ever heard of festool but didn't own them. Two were carpenters, one was a dry wall contractor, one a professional body man. All are very, very professional and all are around tools and people that use them professionally. I was a bit surprised they didn't even know what festools were. That means not only didn't they use them, but no one else around them used them. You can bet every one of them know what Milwaukee is, what snap on is, and so on. I'd bet you would be hard pressed to name a brand, other than festool they didn't know all about. That even surprised me.
But, just speaking about the Domino here, it would be
I don't know what a domino does that I'd need it for, and I'm a cabinet maker? It's not a tool I dream about, much like I have no need for a nail gun. If you want to give me a festool, I think I'd like the a sander, but only because Leon said it makes sanding fun. That I'd like.
Since you mentioned it, I asked the drywall contractor about the Festool drywall sander. He said no one uses drywall sanders and laughed at me. Regarding dust, he said when he makes dust, someone else cleans it up. When he has to clean up, he makes no dust.
Festool hasn't changed that. Home contracting usually starts with a sledge hammer and sawzall. Does Festool make a dust free sledge or sawzall?
Yeah, right. I forgot, your Kreg jig makes no dust with a $500 festering vac sucking up all those nasty drill filings. Youse guys kill me.
I guess that because you do not use Festool you really do not know any better. We will agree to disagree.
with a shop vac specifically it may not matter with with your customers. The last kitchen reface job I worked on was with my customer taking a nap in the bedroom 15' away, while I was going through 3 grits of sand paper. No dust and quiet enough for him to take a nap. And then I probably got paid more for the job so that my customer did not have to put up with a screaming vac. so again, the right tools in the right hands are worth the extra cost. It is all relative.
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