Absolutely if that is they way you want to look at it.
Now you are being emotional and speculating and using what if's. I deal
with product facts information. I suppose one could find a problem with
some kind of exploitation with most anything you might purchase.
Emotions? Perhaps but there are several companies I refuse to do
business with because the way they do business is counter to my
interests. Sony, for instance. I haven't bought anything with the
Sony name on it since the rootkit debacle. Any company who would even
consider such a thing gets crossed off my list.
"Rights" and "right" are only close in spelling bees.
That is ok IMHO, I will not do business in the foreseeable future with HP
because of the problems I had with all 3 of their printers an their
service. Yours and mine are valid reasons for making decisions. We were
both actually affected.
How about the government you send your hard earned dollars to? :-)
On 9/25/2015 2:11 AM, Leon wrote:
Government monopoly is called socialism. You can't choose not to
support it on principle. This is what SawStop tried to impose on the
world. It is not, as you say, the American way.
So now, my principles tell me to shoot the bird at Gass.
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
Well, I partially agree with you, but my decision is not based solely on
emotions (principles) I also know, for a fact, that I have been using
table saws for going on 60 years with zero safety gadgets, and have not
once nicked a finger, cut of a hand, or killed myself. There are 40,000
motor vehicle deaths in the US every year, and most of them could be
prevented by simple crash cages, crash helmets and so on. I take my
changes dying with cars, I reckon after 60 years of sawing, I'm not
overly worried about loping off a pinkie.
The American way is to make a better product, and they will come to your
door. He made the product, then tried to force everyone to use it via
Actually, someone eles, (Clark?) called him an asshole, I just went with
Yes, thus me agreeing with Clark that the guy is an asshole. Asshole is
just a simple way of saying what I really think about him, and I don't
really give a damn if he is the nicest, or the worst guy on the planet.
Ignorance is bliss. There
A principle is based on what you know, what I don't know, well, I don't
I always thought the brake was $70, I read your post somewhere that it
was $90, so I rounded it off to $100 (with taxes?) So shoot me.
If I needed the tech, I would buy the Bosch simply on the fact it works,
and is NOT Saw Stop. I might add that when the SS first came out, I
looked at one at a Saw store show room and it looked like a nice saw. I
wasn't in the market, so didn't buy one. I didn't really care all that
much about the safety crap, just not a big concern for me then or now.
I did like the overall fit and finish, much as I (emotionally) hate to
I read all over the place, including, I believe, from your very own
keyboard that triggering the device destroys the blade. Considering the
importance of a true running blade, I can readily see how this dramatic
event would render a blade useless, and either in need of expensive
repairs or replacement if not using the worlds most expensive saw blade.
By "understand" I assume your mean you are making an assumption?
If you were a man of principle, you would not do business with someone
that violates your principles, ie, an asshole. You don't mind his
business tactics, I do, simple as that.
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
Does anyone know for a fact know what Gass asked for in license fees?
Considering the fact that when other brand vehicles offered anti lock
brakes that this option was offered mostly on the top of the line
vehicles and at a pretty premium additional cost, there was plenty of
wiggle room. And because it was an option the full expense was probably
passed on directly the customer, maybe it also added to the cost of the
base vehicle whether it as included or not.
There are reports that Gass wanted too much for licensing but for an
industry that only now is beginning to not go with status quo and offer
this technology I would be willing to bet that they rejected Gass's
offer more to keep him from proceeding and the good old boys club could
continue to do what it was doing, turning out the same old technology
that we had come to expect. Any deal may have qualified as too
expensive. Letting competition in and watering down the field is too
It was only after Gass produced his saw and introduced his safety
features, including the use of a riving knife, that the competition
started to improve their products as far as user safety is concerned.
As what appears to have happened, not taking Gass's license deal, has
probably been more costly. Delta is hardly in the business any more and
not by the same people that owned them 10`15 years ago. Powermatic is
still in business but owned by another company, the same as the one that
owns Jet and a lot of Powermatic and Jet machines for a long time simply
had different paint and stickers.
I believe most American brands have had to restructure or sell to remain
in the market. While paying Gass for his license may have been very
costly and may have sunk some companies it was a mistake and a lesson on
short sightedness. It would have been to Gass's advantage for his
competition to remain viable so that he could profit from his licenses
and maybe not even produce a saw. If your customers/license holders,
are not selling saws, your are not selling licenses. I understood the
licenses were offered as, per unit, sold with the technology.
Fortunately the PM 2000 and their bandsaws appear to be unique,
possibly some others. And fortunately I believe the quality has not
suffered and most likely why they continue to probably be the strongest
competition to SawStop. But then they, IIRC, were the one of the first,
if not the first, American company to offer the riving knife.
From what I have read SawStop has take more than the lions share of the
market with their own saw.
yea, like they should have done for Palm and RIM. Rim stole the o/s from
the palms for the blackberrys and then only had to pay 10 million
because of the damage it would have done to RIM. That would have shut
all the Blackberry's down, and I'm sure the judge had a blackberry, and
didn't want to lose it.. I think it was about 2005 when that transpired.
But I think it has come to market. And Gass being a patent attorney I
would think he would be right on top of that. Anyway, it will be
interesting to see how this plays out. Hopefully there is enough
difference that Bosch continues to produce the saw. And who knows maybe
Bosch made a deal with Gass, there have been stranger bed fellows.
Exactly. The saw has hit the market and Gass has sued. Check back in
two to five years and we should know the rest of the story. Until then
no one knows what a mess the courts will make out of the situation.
I think the deal is the most likely scenario but there is at most four
or five years left on the basic patents. Bosch might even be trading
off some (perhaps reduced by the courts) royalty payment now for a leg
up on the market five years down the road.
They may have a lot of them, but they may be using quantity over
quality. Some patents are easily skirted with a minor design change.
There is a lot of speculation in this tread, but unless you read the
patents and looked to see if Bosch is the same or different, it is
meaningless. Bosch may or may not have infringed, may or may not have
done it intentionally, but they probably have deep pockets too.
I know of a company right now that holds a patent that is being
infringed upon, has been to court, has had it upheld. He anticipates
collecting tons of money, but to date has nothing but tons of lawyer
bills. Some of the companies he went after are already out of business
for other reasons and will never have a penny to give anyone.
It's meaningless if you have read the patents and looked at
the Bosch too. As krw and I have both said (and we've both
at least skimmed over the patents), what any of us thinks
doesn't matter - it's what a judge and jury think, and they
are impossible to predict.
Add to the mix the complexity of information and you quickly realize
that the jury in most cases isn't comprised of the defendant's "peers."
In this case you're talking about an in depth understanding of
electrical and mechanical engineering about which most of the general
public are severely ignorant.
The same thing has happened with music copyright cases. There have been
cases of blatant, outright plagiarism than anyone with a couple college
courses in music could easily decipher in one listen of each song, in
which the jury/judge dismissed.
Then you have cases in which a good, persuasive trial attorney performed
in court well enough to convince the musically illiterate that one
musical artist "stole" another artist's song. In the latter, most
musicians would shake their heads and say, "There are only 12 notes on a
piano and only so many ways to arrange them, so if you dissect a song
enough you'll soon come to the conclusion that there hasn't been an
original song written in 500 years."
In both examples, it usually comes down to which lawyers and witnesses
the jury members trust more, rather than any real understanding of the
facts in the case.
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
is this the same saw that was mentioned here a while ago
the only bosch tool i own is a jig saw and i have had it for about a year
if this reaxx is made as well as this one and with the same thoughtful
design i would think it is a very good saw
a cut above the other contractor saws and not a rip off
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